In this episode of Trusted Voices, John Fry, president of Temple University, joins Teresa and Erin for a conversation shaped by nearly a quarter century as a college president — at Franklin & Marshall, Drexel, and now Temple — and a clear-eyed view of where higher ed stands today.
Thirty years ago, Fry says, the industry was in growth mode. The question was how to scale smartly. Today the question is different: how to navigate a shrinking market crowded with too many providers. That shift has put consolidation at the center of the conversation.
Fry walks through the Philadelphia region’s recent track record — Drexel and Salus, Villanova and Rosemont, Villanova and Cabrini, the closure of University of the Arts — to surface a thread. The mergers that worked best were approached from strength, not desperation. Salus came to the table with a healthy endowment and a 10-year horizon, not a fire sale.
That timing, Fry argues, is the real leadership test. Institutions that wait until decisions are forced on them lose options, lose grace, and lose the ability to honor the mission they were trying to protect. The stigma around merging has faded. The harder cultural shift is recognizing when independence is no longer the right answer, and acting while there’s still room to choose.
The conversation widens from there: lessons higher ed could borrow from how health systems consolidated, partnerships with cultural nonprofits like the Library Company of Philadelphia, and the case for a more porous boundary between public and private institutions.
But the quieter thread is sustainability of a different kind — Fry’s own. Twenty-four years in, he frames the presidency not as a calling but as a job. A serious, demanding, deeply rewarding job — but one he leaves at the office, returns to in the morning, and keeps in proportion to family, health, and a long love of squash.
Show Notes
- Signs of an Institutional Death Spiral
- ED Rejects Call to Expand Access to Higher Graduate Loan Caps
- Edelman Trust Barometer
- The Evolving News Landscape: Comparing Media Habits and Trust Between Teens and Adults
- Temple has lost average of $200 million annually as enrollment slides, and retention rates are a major issue, internal report says
Read the full transcript here
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Hello and welcome to the Trusted Voices Podcast. I’m Teresa Valerio Parrot alongside Erin Hennessy, and in each episode, we discuss the latest news and biggest issues facing higher education leaders through a communications lens. For these conversations, we’re often joined by a guest who shares their own experiences and perspectives. But we also make time for one-on-one conversations about what we’re seeing, hearing, and thinking. Trusted Voices is produced by Volt, the go-to news source for higher education leaders and decision makers. Remember to visit Volt at voltedu.com and subscribe to Trusted Voices on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode.
Erin Hennessy
Good morning.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Good morning, sunshine, how are you?
Erin Hennessy
Not as hopped up on life as you seem to be, but I’m getting there.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, my arms may be a little less animated than normal because I had Pilates this morning and I can’t lift them because I’m in my year of woo or Kevin calls it my year of woo woo.
Erin Hennessy
That’s great.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, so I have been doing everything I can to work on work-life balance and I’m trying a whole bunch of different things to see what sticks. So if anybody has any recommendations, yes, I’ve done sound bowl sessions. Yes, I’ve done all types of yoga. I have met with a Nepalese medicine woman. I have done a salt cave. I have done red light saunas. I am big into Pilates right now. This doesn’t sound like the year of woo potentially, but I’m starting ballet for adults.
Erin Hennessy
I’m fascinated by you.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, and all of this started because I accidentally signed up for a half marathon and decided I need to find space for this to train. And also as I started training, I got really, really happy with finding balance.
Erin Hennessy
That’s great.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
Erin Hennessy
And I am sure the people who came here for some really thoughtful higher ed content are enjoying this look into the year of woo woo. And hopefully they’ll take something from this.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes. Yes. So here’s why I need a year of woo. Do you want to hear what I’ve been talking about with friends?
Erin Hennessy
Sure.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
We have gone back to a January piece that was in Inside Higher Ed and it was called Signs of an Institutional Death Spiral. So I recently spent a woo woo weekend with two of my very good friends in Santa Fe. And as three higher ed nerds do, I sent this to them and I said, let’s use this as our conversation piece for the weekend. So it’s a really strong piece from Inside Higher Ed. It’s a great piece, it’s a great piece that talks about how should you be thinking about signs for your institution that you need to pull up. And so what we did is we did two things. We went through each of the categories and we said, okay, does this cover, does this not cover some of the signs of institutional turmoil? And then we spent the rest of our woo woo weekend literally in hot springs, sitting and talking about this is really once you are in a death spiral, how can you plan when you are pre-spiral? How can you be thinking five to 10 years before you get to that point so that you don’t reach that? So part of why I need the sound baths is because in our day jobs, we talk about death spirals.
Erin Hennessy
I was not sure you’d be able to bridge from one to the other and I should never have questioned whether or not you’d be able to do that.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, and I have to say looking at institutional health is so much better after yoga and in a hot spring than it is when you’re just sitting at your desk.
Erin Hennessy
Well, assume then that that is permission for me to pull out my Amex and start making some reservations. Bridging yet again, I am thrilled that you brought up that piece because one of the pieces that has stuck in my brain and I actually did not include it in a couple of things that I wanted to bring up today. And we’re going to, try and keep this one relatively short because we have a really good conversation to share with folks, with our guests. But I kept thinking about, and apologies, this is a very Inside Higher Ed heavy week apparently for things that stuck with me. There was a piece in Inside Higher Ed about the closure of Hampshire and Q&A with the president of NECHE. And it just made me think…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes. And NECHE is.
Erin Hennessy
I’m sorry, the New England Commission on Higher Education, the accreditor for New England institutions.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you. Yes. Just for those who would say, hm what is a NECHE?
Erin Hennessy
Yes, previously an accreditor for New England institutions, but now anybody can join NECHE. Anyway, it was a Q&A with him and it made me think back to, this is probably our 47th organic plug for our conversation with Belle Wheelan and the conversation we had with her about an accreditor’s responsibility when an institution financially is on or is entering into a death spiral and his comments again just sort of put me back in this this mindset of saying like are you, are you seeing different things than we’re seeing because his assertion to the reporter was you know i i don’t think i don’t think all that many of our small private institutions are in such dire straits and, yeah maybe, maybe I need a sound bath at this moment.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Right? Right? To find your inner peace, Erin. Yes.
Erin Hennessy
Because yeah, I will in a glass of Sauvignon Blanc at the end of the day, but it just, I don’t know, man. You know, like I just cycle constantly about, are we just, just hyper focused on this?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
No.
Erin Hennessy
Do we have unrealistic standards?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
No. Well, because our standards are about what is in the best interest of students, what is in the best interest of our faculty, how do we maintain mission. And that’s one of the things that I really liked about the piece that I mentioned is that she broke down these different indicators into categories and then into basically measurable pieces that we should be looking at. And it was exactly how we feel, although there were some areas that the group thought should be enhanced and added to. And there was a real, there was one reference to marketing and communications and we thought there should be a section, but it’s big. There are many indicators and my big worry for the industry and why I continue to make sure that I have that work-life balance is this is serious stuff and we need the most serious people thinking about what helps us build trust, but it’s not just about messaging. It’s about taking our finances and our responsibilities and our mission seriously and having…
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, accountability.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, having the forethought to say, this is what we can do and this is what we can’t do and why. And not thinking about runways as, you know, aborted flights, but instead about what makes the most sense if you want to go the farthest in your flight. And so, no, I don’t think that you are thinking about it wrong or were thinking about, maybe this is a better way to say it, we’re thinking about this similarly. We have serious responsibilities and this trust gap that we talk about isn’t just about our messaging and whether or not we can show return on basic investment. It’s the whole investment that people and communities and institutions are giving to us.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. And so folks know already having tuned in that we’re talking with John Fry, the president of Temple in this episode. And we don’t talk about it in the actual conversation, but I do want to give him a lot of credit. There was a recent piece in the Philadelphia Inquirer about Temple’s enrollment and financial position. And I was so impressed by the way in which he had a conversation and his team talked with this reporter and they were very transparent. They were very forthcoming to say, here are the challenges. We’re aware of them and we’re working through them instead of trying to say, no, no, no, don’t look at that. Look over here. And so, you know.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Or this happened to us, and so we’re going to approach it as if it happened to us. I think saying this is our reality and this is how we’re going to lead through it is critically important. And I love, as you all are going to hear, how pragmatic but also how optimistic he was through all of this. And that’s the kind of leadership that a 24-year president is going to bring to the table.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, absolutely. He’s, he’s seen it all. So thank you for bringing that piece back to the forefront. I will definitely look at it again.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
It’s good.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. And we’ll flag the recent Q&A with the president of NECHE as well in the show notes, as well as that Philadelphia Inquirer piece about Temple. The other piece that has sort of been on my mind this week is not necessarily the piece, the news development is that the Department of Education has finalized their regulations around loan caps and have put in place loan caps that, for graduate programs, that are going to be, I think, really detrimental long term to a lot of institutions.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
Erin Hennessy
And so we’ve talked about this before. We don’t need to go into a huge amount of depth on it but for professional programs, those including medicine, including law, including some of those really high cost programs, folks will have a cap on those professional degrees. And there’s of course a huge amount of debate around what is a professional degree. Nursing in the perception of the Department of Education is not a professional degree and so is now categorized as a graduate program and those programs will face, students enrolling in those programs will face lower loan caps, so they will be able to borrow less for pursuing those programs. We have a couple of client institutions that are impacted by this and they’ve been talking about what this means not just for them as institutions but for fields like nursing, education, where we are A, really short on talent right now and B, really in a position where we need to continue to diversify those fields and this will make that even harder.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And I’ll also add to that. It’s as of today, May 1st. And the reason that I say that is that institutions need to be, some of them have already buttoned up their budgets for the coming year. Some of them are buttoning up their budgets. So to get this determination by the Department of Education in time for the end of the fiscal year, there are a lot of institutions that are scrambling. All of those that we’ve talked to were planning as if these would move forward but they still had a little bit of wiggle room in there just in case they were going to be adjusted. So if this would have come out in, let’s say, a January or a February timeline, this would have given our institutions the ability to be more strategic. And they have done their best to try to figure out what the pieces would be that they would have moving forward, but to now, May 1, to see more of those pieces coming into focus. This is no bueno.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, with eight weeks left to go before the end of the fiscal year for so many.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, yes. This is when the money trees, if the presidents have those, or the slush funds, all of those imaginary things that somehow people seem to think exist, but we know don’t. If you did have one, now’s the time to water that tree a little bit more.
Erin Hennessy
Yes, prune it with loving, tender care.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, as we heard from Todd way back when, prune it. Yeah.
Erin Hennessy
Prune it, baby. I also want to flag two other quick things that are not directly higher ed related, but I think really should be informing sort of how we look at the world and how we look at the larger piece of work that we do as we talk with presidents and senior leaders about the world around us and how to prepare to face it. There’s a really interesting study that just came out and this is from It’s a partnership between the AP and Northwestern Medill School of Journalism. And it is The Evolving News Landscape comparing media habits and trust between teens and adults. And since those are two of our big audiences in this world. I just wanted to flag, this would be something that I would absolutely be forcing my Georgetown students to go through line by line with me. But there are some really, really interesting places where these two audiences diverge. There are some interesting places where they come back together. And when we think about, you know, we were all together in Philadelphia a couple of weeks ago for our team retreat. And one of the big topics that we talked about was how higher ed is changing, how the media is changing, and how those two things together necessarily will change how we do our work and really on some level what our work is. This is really, really interesting. It gets into the level of trust that younger people have in creator communities, looking at the sort of rising role of influencers, looking at the continued importance of local news. I think a lot of our clients bring us stories and say, we think this is national. And when we all sort of talk through it and we decide, no, it’s more of a local story, I think sometimes the team feels like that’s less than, and this kind of data really will help them make the case for the importance of building those relationships with local news and the value of those stories and conversations that local news is bringing to the marketplace. So, I highly recommend that study.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And what I miss most about being on the PRSA board is last year, Ray Day was the chair and he would bring speakers to us that were focused on where we should be thinking next in the industry. And a year ago, I think it was May or it was a year ago, February, he had someone come in and talk to us about influencers and what that means and how do we move beyond the knee jerk cringe of the word influencers, but instead think about them as ambassadors and the ways in which they are carrying news, reinstilling trust or removing it and how we have to have a mind shift around influencers and news. So I’m pleased to see that the data also, as you were mentioning, delves into that because I think in some ways that’s a generational gap for us to think about news and influencers in the same sentence. But that’s something that we need to figure out and work through because that is how news is being shared.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, and I think we need to, for those of us who are on the north side of 40…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Northwest?
Erin Hennessy
Northwest side of 40, we need to redefine influencer.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
That’s what I’m saying, yeah.
Erin Hennessy
It is not just, yeah, it’s not just the lady who wants you to buy wellness supplements. It’s these…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m not on supplements.
Erin Hennessy
So anyway, that’s an interesting report and I’m still making my way through it, but definitely recommend that folks give that a little bit of time. And when I was looking at it, it reminded me that I missed my favorite holiday of the year, which is in early January when Edelman releases their annual trust barometer. And I think it’s, again, something that I have made my students go through. It is such a fascinating global look at how people are feeling about major sectors of the economy, how they’re feeling about government, how they’re feeling about the media. And they really pull out some interesting trends that sort of mark the data and the responses that they see every year.
Last year it was a lot about the rise of grievance and how people feel unserved and the emotions that that raises in people. This year they are calling the results a crisis of insularity, saying that people are narrowing their world to smaller familiar circles that reflect their views and this hinders economic and societal progress. I think that interestingly, dovetails with what you see in this news landscape survey data that people are looking to influencers because they have that parasocial relationship. They feel like that person is part of their circle. And just sort of what all of that means for us in terms of media. There’s some interesting data in here about AI, about how you can use trust to bridge divides between people. Just a lot of data and some really interesting insights. So I highly recommend that for folks as things start to slow down a little bit on some campuses. Those are two really good reports to spend some time with.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Well, and I think it always helps us to ground where we are now. So a year ago, as people were saying, how did the election turn out the way that it did? The trust barometer, which comes out in January, very much gave us an indicator of how and why we were where we are.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, absolutely.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Same with the trust barometer this year. It is not just a snapshot, but you also can compare to past years and see the patterns and the ways in which public sentiment is shifting or not. And it really does give us a great sense of where we are and where we’re going next. So if you’re looking at that as we’re thinking about trust in a much greater sense, as we’re thinking about how people are influenced and who they influence, this is a fantastic report to read for that grounding.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, absolutely. So with all of that said, and we…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Oh can I add one more tidbit?
Erin Hennessy
Yes.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
This goes back to so many episodes, Erin. Last episode, the episode before, probably the episode before. I just want to give a special shout out to my mom. Last night, the Nuggets lost. They are now out of contention for the championship. She had me put $20 down in betting, which is not the year of woo woo, for her and figure out how to do that.
Erin Hennessy
Sure.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Lost $20. They did, they’re not going to win the championship.
Erin Hennessy
No.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So I am so sorry. My mom, I am so sorry. Denver Nuggets and next year is another year.
Erin Hennessy
There you go.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m out 20 bucks.
Erin Hennessy
I’m sorry. I really am.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I could have gone to a sound bath, everybody. I’m missing out on one more sound bath.
Erin Hennessy
I mean, honestly, it’s your mistake for not getting your mom to front you the $20, but that gets into your relationship and I don’t want to go there.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Trust, it all comes back to trust.
Erin Hennessy
It all comes to, your trust barometer with your mother is very low. Let’s again, get this back on track. I am really excited to have folks hear our conversation with John Fry. And I’m going to tell you a little bit about him as I read this here bio.
John Fry took office as Temple University’s president on November 1st, 2024, having established a reputation as both a civic leader in Philadelphia and a national leader in higher education. Prior to his arrival at Temple, President Fry served as president of Drexel University from 2010 to 2024, where he elevated the university’s global presence through academic and research partnerships, major NIH and NSF research programs, as well as hubs for innovation and collaboration. Under his leadership, Drexel set a national example for the successful execution of public-private partnerships and became a powerful force for economic development in the greater Philadelphia region. Before joining Drexel, he served as president of Franklin & Marshall College from 2002 to 2010, and executive vice president of the University of Pennsylvania from 1995 to 2002. A native of Brooklyn, New York, Fry graduated from Lafayette College and earned a master’s degree in business administration from the NYU Stern School of Business. He and his wife, who is an art historian, have three adult children who you’ll hear a little bit about in our conversation.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you so much for joining us, John. I know that Erin wants us to get into some local and regional questions, but I’d love for our conversation to start a little bit more holistically. I read that you initially transitioned to a campus leadership position after serving as a consultant to that institution, which of course we obviously appreciate. So if you were to put your consulting hat back on after all of these years, how would you assess the state of the industry, including its current slate of leaders and the opportunities for the future? And how does your past consulting experience help you in your capacity as president?
John Fry
Well, first, every consultant’s worst nightmare is to implement his or her own recommendations.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
True.
John Fry
So when I went to Penn in 1995, I had just written a report that was pretty critical of the way in which the administration was running, how much it costs for operations and services. And then I was sort of handed back my own recommendations and hired to implement them. So suffice it to say, I wasn’t the most popular person initially on campus when I joined back in the fall.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
We’ll come back to that, don’t you worry.
John Fry
So, from what I remember back then, and it was 30 years ago, higher ed was sort of in a growth mode and it was attempting to sort of, how do you manage growth in the smartest way possible? How do you get more capacity and more scale into the organization? So a lot of my work was designed around, around that. And it’s so different right now because now we’re in a time when there’s just sort of less resources to go around, less opportunities regarding student recruitment, particularly in certain parts of the country like the Northeast. And it’s almost an entirely different time. Some of the tensions, I think, are the same as they were back then 30 years ago. You know, shared governance back then was as fraught a topic as it is today.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Or as big of an opportunity. I’m an optimist. So how can shared governance be a release valve as intended is also something I’m always very curious about. But go ahead.
John Fry
No, and that’s a really important topic, particularly when you’re communicating difficult news. It’s really important to have good shared governance when you’re out there, you know, beginning to chart a different course based on reduced resources. So, but I would say, it’s always been, presidential leadership has always been a fraught topic. You know, how much and how expansive I think back then for sure, I ended up working for a lot of presidents and other senior leaders who found it very challenging to work in a system where their authority was constantly being tested by either boards or their faculties. So a lot of that is the same and remains the same. But this environment, it’s a wild environment right now. I think one of the new things that I’m sure we’ll talk about it is the opportunity for consolidations and mergers and partnerships. Back then, that wasn’t really much of a topic. Today it is. It’s a huge topic because again, we’re in a mode where we need to rationalize what’s happening. So many providers in a, in a shrinking market. So, the whole sort of M&A conversation is a huge conversation, right now. And obviously that’s an environment where consultants thrive and helping to sort of put together these partnerships. So it would be a really interesting time to be back in consulting. Unfortunately, I’m not, and so I have to sort of live with what I have.
Erin Hennessy
I can’t quite tell if you just said fortunately or unfortunately, but I think either could apply. You teed me up beautifully for my question. And I mentioned to you before we started recording that my dad, my late father, is a Drexel alum and he actually worked in mergers and acquisitions. So this moment would be of great interest to him. When you, as you mentioned the Northeast and sort of the density of institutions in the Northeast, I think a lot of people think about Boston as a college town, but I’ve always thought about Philadelphia as a college town as well. And we’ve seen a lot of consolidation in the last handful of years, whether it’s Philadelphia University and Jefferson, St. Joe’s and a couple of different institutions there, Villanova and Rosemont. You had some experience with this when you were at Drexel and some consolidation. We’ve also seen sort of the negative side or the flip side of that coin with closures of University of the Arts and Cabrini. And I just wonder sitting where you sit now and sitting where you’ve sat previously, what do you think that consolidation trend says about Philadelphia’s future as a college town? And are there things that other college towns like Boston and New York and Chicago should be looking at as we sort of navigate this trend?
John Fry
Well, I think more of it is inevitable. And I think the question is, can it be managed better than it’s managed?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
John Fry
So I’ll give you the Drexel University merger with Salus University as an example of a situation where Salus actually was in strong shape, good endowment, nice number of students, market relevant programs. But the president there, Michael Mittelman, I think was was thinking as he should, as we all should about 10 years ahead, and thought that a larger platform for Salus would be a better way for them to navigate the future. He and I knew each other from various civic things that we did together. We got into a conversation about this one day. And then I think after, some good, good conversations between ourselves and our boards, we embarked on what I think has been not only a great process, but a great outcome. But Salus did that from a position of strength, not from a position of weakness.
Erin Hennessy
Right.
John Fry
So I think the first advice I would give institutions that are out there is that as they think ahead, think ahead a decade. And if you think you can still be viable as an independent institution, public or private, then stick to it and keep going. But if you have doubts about whether or not you have a platform that’s going to allow you to stay independent. Exploring those relationships from a position of strength right now with desirable institutions and being really sort of systematic and thorough about it is exactly the right thing to do. Now on the other side for institutions that have bigger platforms, places like Temple, we also need to be attentive to the opposite question, which is what are our gaps and are there partnerships that could sort of fill in those gaps? You know, I think that, I know for Temple, there’ll be many exciting opportunities going forward. But we’re gonna try to be very selective and very careful about the things we entertain versus ones that may sound nice on the surface, but aren’t gonna be creative. But I think this is a big topic now for both institutions that see themselves folding into a larger system and larger institutions that see this as a way of building more capacity and deepening areas where they need to deepen to be more competitive.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
You just raised two things that I think are critically important. The first is I love that you gave that decade long perspective. That’s something that Erin and I talk about all of the time. We work with institutions who may be looking ahead and saying, at what point are we the most attractive to combine with another institution so that we really do have a partnership, we’re not just the sum of our parts and we’re not just looking to kind of sell off in a fire sale. And that I think is critically important. So I love the way that you talked about 10 years out. Often when we’re working with an institution, they may be looking as short as two weeks out, maybe a semester out. Sometimes it’s a luxury if they’re two years out. But to have that decade gives the opportunity for the institution to find the right partner, to transition all of its students, its faculty, its traditions, and its warmth and mission and all of the things that we talk about rather than just reactively seeing how can we get this closed as quickly as possible or find what ends up being a forced marriage because we have no choices. So thank you for raising that timeline because I think that’s critically important.
John Fry
So if I can make another point, I think going back to the original question that you raised, so 30 years ago, I think a lot of stigma around, a sort of merger that means, we failed and, you know, now we have to merge or be taken over or worse yet have to close. I think because of the amount of activity that’s happened, especially in recent years, there’s not that much of a stigma attached to this. I think it’s a sort of practical strategy that institutions have to entertain. And I’ll tell you one institution that I really admire for the way it’s handled its own transition has been Rosemont. Under Jim Cawley, who used to work here at Temple, our former Lieutenant Governor. I think Jim went in with the mindset that, I’m going to try to figure out how to keep this place going independently for as long as possible. And then probably came to the conclusion at one point or another that a connection with a great institution like Villanova really made more sense in terms of upholding the principles of the institution, celebrating its history, and making sure that Rosemont will always sort of have a place. And I think the way that’s been handled and the way they’ve mapped out the timeframe and the seemingly very collegial way they’ve gone about it, and kudos to Father Peter as well from Villanova, that’s sort of a textbook thing. I also think Cabrini handled it exactly right. I think their interim president, I think, came in and concluded that an independent position wasn’t going to be possible, connected to Villanova in the right way. And here we have another sort of textbook way of saying, look, our time as an independent institution is over, but we can transition our very valuable assets to another great institution and make sure that our students are taught out and given their degrees and really feel good about the rest of their experience. so, UArts, unfortunately, was opposite of that and it’s too bad. I mean, one of the things I’m very proud that Temple did, you know, was before I started, was to accept, I think it was close to 44% of UArts students transitioned over to Temple and Temple gave them a great home and graduated many of them. Some of them are still here. So there are some cases where these things are really very, very well handled, but I think the institutions that are most at risk are the ones that delay these decisions.
Erin Hennessy
Absolutely. And I think that longer runway gives you a chance to, it just gives an institution more options to say, this is what we want a partnership to look like rather than this is at a point where this is purely a real estate transaction, where you are purely getting buildings and campus. It breaks my heart to see that happen, to see somebody, we can get into the psychology of why you would wait so long and limit the choices for your people so significantly.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
That is to say, I just like something that you just encapsulated so beautifully, John, and that is I think the ultimate leadership position is understanding when it’s time to merge or to close. That’s the ultimate leadership position. And I feel like that shifted and changed over the last five years, maybe more, because it used to be seen as a sign of weakness, which is why so many waited until the bitter end when it’s too late for the grace that we’re talking about. So just kudos to those leaders who are living that principle of what is in the best interest of the institution, not how will this reflect on me.
John Fry
Absolutely.
Higher Voltage ad read
John Fry
One thing I did want to mention though, I was just sort of thinking about the previous few minutes of conversation and you guys have probably already covered this, but looking at health systems and the way health systems have evolved, I mean, healthcare has done, I think, a really nice job of sort of assimilating local hospitals into larger health systems. I mean, look at the evolution of the Penn Health System and of the Jefferson Health System and even Temple’s own health system more recently with the acquisition of a really strong local community hospital, Chestnut Hill. There’s something for higher ed to learn from what these public and private health systems have done because they’ve kind of almost normalized this. It’s not, again, no stigma attached to great local hospitals deciding that they need to be part of a larger system because that’s where the economies of scale are, that’s where you can hook up to a larger Epic system and get all the benefits of that information. And there are some institutions that have begun to build out their own systems. You’re all familiar with the case of Northeastern, what Vanderbilt is doing more recently. Those are really interesting models for us to watch because when I see those things, it reminds me a little bit about what healthcare has sort of gone through in the past in terms of their own consolidation.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So you are queuing up my next question beautifully. And that’s to say that you’ve served in the senior most post for public and private institutions. And you have a unique perspective on the potential opportunities for public and private institution partnerships that go beyond collegiality. Are there ways perhaps for innovation to blur the lines between the two types of institutions? And does the tight enrollment and funding environment incentivize new models?
John Fry
100%. 100%. I spend a good deal of my time, on the outside, just constantly talking with other institutions, higher ed, not for profit, just trying to think about relationships and things that may not be obvious right now, but could end up being real assets later on. That, I think, has been a good practice because many of the things that have advanced as far back as, the university of Pennsylvania, certainly at F&M and Drexel and now at Temple have been by just sort of being in the market, being curious, getting to know all the leaders, finding out what’s on their minds. And you build out that network. And again, what doesn’t seem obvious initially in terms of a relationship becomes obvious, you know, later on, I’m so glad I got to spend time getting to know Mike Mittelman all those years ago when Salus and Drexel probably didn’t think they had anything in common except maybe for a good friendship between their presidents. And all these years later, as Drexel really doubled down in terms of its emphasis on health services and health care and health research and looked and saw a portfolio at Salus that perfectly complemented the portfolio at the academic and research portfolio that we had at Drexel, then it became very obvious what we needed to do. I’d urge all of us to be out there constantly talking to your colleagues. And it doesn’t matter whether they’re private or public because I think these things are now much more mainstream and easier to put together. The other thing I would suggest too, and here I have a bias because I’ve been involved in a few of them, the cultural not-for-profits are also very important to connect. So we’re in the process of doing a merger with a library company, which, you know, I mean, the library company’s holdings are, you know, there are hardly any peers in the country that have the kind of collections that they do that is going to innumerably, innumerably strengthen the Temple libraries and the Temple libraries in turn give a platform of expertise to the library company that it can’t afford, you know, with 16 employees. So here’s a sort of a win-win. We get to continue to steward this absolutely world-class historic, you know, collection and the library company, which really enriches the possibilities for my faculty and my students. And on the other hand, you know, they’re 300 years old, we’re gonna give them another couple hundred years of highway ahead of them because of our strength and stability. So it’s not just higher ed to higher ed, it should be, higher ed to all the nonprofits and exploring what those connections may be as well.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I love that. And I feel as if the accreditors also have been much more open to that kind of innovation and to partnership because they understand more and more how this strengthens the institutions like you were just describing and also how it provides opportunities for education to continue on. That may not have been as easy of a road a number of years back.
John Fry
Right. And also to steward precious assets because in the process of all the things that are happening, we have these precious intellectual assets that someone needs to hold it to own and to support going forward. And, you know, we feel really good about that because the library company’s repository of, you know, material has to be preserved and protected and stewarded going forward. And it’s going to be a great opportunity for Temple to work with them to do that.
Erin Hennessy
That’s great. I want to work at the library, a library company, the library company. That would be my dream job to just be surrounded by those collections all day, every day.
John Fry
It’s pretty cool.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, you must have gotten a great back behind the scenes tour.
John Fry
I did. I did, actually was phenomenal.
Erin Hennessy
Amazing. Well, I want to pivot just a little bit and ask again, I’m sort of the local regional question asker today, but knowing that you essentially to take this position moved across town, I think is a somewhat unique experience for presidents. And so you knew the institution you were headed to from a distance very well. And I imagine that was similar between your move from F &M to Drexel. When you arrived at Temple or when you arrived at Drexel, what were some of the preconceived notions you had about these new institutions being a neighbor or a regional neighbor that you had to let go of and sort of reset your thinking about or unpack some information that wasn’t quite accurate that you had as a local neighbor.
John Fry
Well, you know, it’s interesting because other than my really strong friendship with my predecessors, Joanne Epps and Dick Englert, I didn’t really know Temple that well at all. I mean, I would, of course I’d read about Temple and knew a little bit about it, but I didn’t really know the institution. So I didn’t really have many preconceived notions, which was actually really sort of nice because I kind of showed up on the first day and I was like, you know, okay, let’s, let’s find out what this is like. And I’ve been more than delighted by what I found, by the way, it’s just such an incredible community. It really holds its mission in front of it. And there’s such unanimity around what we do and who we do it for, which is, which is great. And it’s a super friendly community. We have lots of challenges, but we have so many assets to meet those challenges. So I’ve been sort of learning along the way and honestly, you know, I’ve been here 14, 15 months, whatever it is. Every day I’m picking up, I’m picking up something. So, Drexel I knew, when I worked at Penn, because I had a lot to do with, with Drexel because we were, back in those days forming university city district and beginning, when it became a, a pretty big turnaround of university city. So my Drexel colleagues were very close friends of mine and I spent a lot of time with them and had insights into Drexel. So that, that I didn’t really have as many preconceived notions other than the fact that I don’t think I really appreciated what cooperative education was all about until I started working there and saw what an absolutely ingenious system it is for educating undergraduates and getting them thinking that age 18 or 19 about their life after college and what they were going to do to prepare themselves. And it’s just such a powerful way of educating people through experiential learning. I thought of it probably as just a bunch of internships and not as something deeper than that. And so that was probably my biggest preconceived notion coming to Drexel was really understanding how everything is sort of set up to give these students such an amazing set of experiences that will really get them to the point when they’re at graduation they know a lot about who they are, what their strengths and weaknesses are, and what they might want to do in terms of post-graduation.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So I’m going to shift our conversation pretty significantly for a second. You’ve now served as a president for 24 years.
John Fry
Don’t remind me.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And on this podcast, we talk a lot about how difficult a presidency can be professionally, personally, and mentally. So as you near that quarter century mark, congratulations, what advice would you have for those who aspire to a presidency, to colleagues who are just starting one of these critical roles, and to those who are sitting presidents and are contemplating one of those two to five year average tenure year exits.
John Fry
Yeah, well, first of all, best job ever. I mean, you know.
Erin Hennessy
Hmm.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I love that.
John Fry
Obviously it’s, you know, there are challenges, but every day I get to wake up and come to an institution like this and have the absolute privilege to help lead one of our nation’s great public urban research universities. I felt the same way going to my little liberal arts college in Lancaster every morning in the same way that I felt going to Drexel every morning. So these jobs are amazing jobs. They have, you know, they give me so much access and so much insight into so many things. And so yes, they’re, they’re amazing jobs, but they’re super hard jobs. And I think that, the advice is making sure that, you know, you never put your job ahead of your family and ahead of basic care for yourself, because it’s really easy to get swept up in this and get so sort of challenged, if not frustrated by the day to day that you just end up getting inside your own head and start not enjoying this very great job. And so what I’ve tried to always do is just make sure that I put it in context and keep my family and my health out in front of everything else to make sure that I’m mentally and physically fit for purpose. And then I go in and work as hard as I can. And then the really hard thing to do at the end of the day is to shut it off and let go. It’ll be there in the morning, when you’re back, and not to let it consume me. And so I try not to bring a lot of work home. I try not to Monday morning quarterback myself all evening. Instead, I just want to get home, see my wife, see my kids and just like have a normal life. Not let it sort of get in my head. And so, yeah, I’ve been at it for a long time and I’ve been lucky because I’ve for four really different institutions. I mean, Penn is Penn. It’s an amazing, amazing place. People think, well, running a liberal arts college must be easier than running, you know, an R1, but not the case. Actually, in some ways it was much harder because it was so much more personal. It’s you and 2000 students and, however many faculty, 250, 300 faculty, it’s a pretty closed community.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And they know who you are and where you live.
John Fry
And you got to be, you got to be like super up for like looking everyone in the eye and chatting up with everyone. You can’t be anonymous on those campuses. And so it took a lot to do that. It takes a lot to do the job that I, that I do here now. But what’s really nice is that these jobs are so different, running a small private liberal arts college that’s 200 and something years old versus, this, really interesting, intensely urban private university with cooperative education and applied research that was doing these huge innovation projects to coming to Philadelphia’s public university with multiple campuses and 35,000 students, internationally and domestically. I mean, they’re such different jobs. They have things that are very in common with each other. And then they have things that are wildly divergent, which keeps it interesting.
Erin Hennessy
You know, I work with graduate students in a master’s program at Georgetown. And one of the things I tell them, because they’re always so stressed about putting together the career and putting together their path and their trajectory. And the thing I tell them is you don’t know what your career or your trajectory is until really you look back. You can plan, but God laughs. And you don’t really know what your trajectory was until you look back at it and see how things connect and sort of put together a narrative. I think it’s really easy for us to look at your experience and say, we went from, to your point, the easy small liberal arts to an urban applied research institution to a public R1 opportunity institution and see what we would call the narrative of your leadership. But how do you tell your story of how you came to this industry and what that trajectory represents for you? What’s the story that you tell about your leadership journey?
John Fry
It’s sort of simple. I was an undergraduate at a liberal arts college, Lafayette college in Easton, got involved as an RA, became involved in student government, became student government president, was then given an ex officio seat on the board. And I sort of watched, maybe from, a little bit from the upper decks, how these institutions sort of ran. And it was, it was to me and I was treated, it was like a dumb 20 year old. What did I know? But they treated me like an esteemed colleague that I really sort of wasn’t, but they put up with me and, dumb questions that I would ask. But I had a seat at the table and I remember thinking, what institution would give a student that much respect and opportunity to sort of have voice and, then…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
What million or billion dollar organization business, right? Right.
John Fry
I know. And so that always sort of stuck with me. It was just such a wonderful number of years where I got to participate in the life of this institution in a very special way. So all those years later when I was on the audit staff of the company that I worked for and they needed someone to go to Virginia for a year to be a consultant at a university, I said, wow, it’d be fun to go back and work in one of those places again. And that literally is how it happened. It was very serendipitous, and, the rest, was a good set of fortune and opportunities that I took advantage of and worked my way through the rest of it. But it was all forged as a, like an undergraduate at an institution that actually really cared deeply about shared governance. That was sort of what they did and they really did a good job of it.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, I think we all have these stories. Mine was very similar in terms of being involved on campus and picking my head up one day and sort of saying, people make a career? This is like a job. People make a career out of this and write books about this. And this is a thing that has changed my life so significantly. And why would I not want to do this every day for the rest of my life? And so I’m really touched to hear your story and to hear that the bug bit you early and sort of brought you back around to higher ed at the right moment.
John Fry
And all these years later, I sit on its board. I’ve been on its board for like two decades.
Erin Hennessy
Aw!
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I love that full circle.
Erin Hennessy
Full circle.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I was just looking for free parking and I was looking for football tickets and that’s why I applied for my first job to report to a president. I told him that. So there you go, we all come to these jobs in different ways.
Erin Hennessy
Employee of the Year right there, right?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So I’m gonna end us on a light note. When I was doing some research, there was a thread that I found that I’m so curious about. Here’s my final question: You are a squash supporter, you are a squash player and a squash advocate. Share what squash represents to you and do you plan to attend the 2028 debut of squash at the Los Angeles Olympics?
John Fry
Yeah, so it’s a long story, but if you’ve ever seen the game, it’s either two or four people in a glass box with very little personal space basically trying to outdo each other. And it’s a super hard game. You have to be super fit to play it well. And it’s sort of like chess in shorts, you know. I was fortunate that a good friend at Penn had heard that I had played a lot of tennis in my youth and said, you know, would you like to learn squash? And took me under his wing, taught me the game. And I taught my three kids the game and got very involved. They all played competitively, two of the three played in college.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Wow.
John Fry
It just became a sort of family thing. And then I was looking for opportunities to sort of, you know, give back and became involved in U.S. squash and became the chair of the board. And then we built the Arlen Specter National Training Center on the campus. And that was, I think, considered a pivotal investment for the game because we started then producing Olympic caliber players. And eventually we applied to get accepted into the Olympics, which we had not received. Yes, to previous applications and luckily we’ll be there in LA in ‘28. And I do intend to go.
Erin Hennessy
That’s super cool.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
That’s amazing. You just lit up with that question. And all I can think is either the internet led me astray and he’s about to tell me, I have no idea what you’re talking about. Maybe give me a zucchini recipe or you were going to lean in. So thank you for talking about that. You just made my day.
John Fry
If you’ve never played, it’s a hard game to pick up. But once you pick it up, you’ll never, you’ll never let it down. It’s just, it’s a great game.
Erin Hennessy
I’m just shocked that there is no protection that anybody wears except for eye protection. I would want a helmet and pads because that ball is moving fast.
John Fry
No.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And it would bruise you really badly, right?
John Fry
Yeah, I’ve worn a bunch of those balls and once they hit, they stay. You don’t get rid of the black and blue easily.
Erin Hennessy
Ugh, man.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Sounds a lot like a presidency.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you already scolded us once. I’m going to give you a President Fry on the way out. President Fry, we really appreciate you taking the time to talk with us. Your passion for the work that your institutions do is evident. And as somebody who sits across the river and watches these institutions closely, it really is an honor to have the opportunity to chat with you today.
John Fry
Great. Thanks, Erin. Thanks, Teresa.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you so very much. Thank you.
Erin Hennessy
Thank you.
John Fry
Take care.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I love this podcast because we get to talk to really smart people. We get to really stretch our brains and think in different ways. And I’m so grateful to John for allowing us to do exactly that. And I loved that his background is so different than so many other presidents and the way that he has such intentionality and really just his strategic approach to things, you can feel his consultant roots.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, and I loved hearing that his story started with sort of a, you think it’s so damn easy, you come do it, kind of approach to really put your money where your mouth is. And I think you and I have had similar experiences where we say, it’s great to be able to come in and help people figure out what needs to happen or needs to change or is going well, and then we get to leave.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes. We just get to parachute out. We’re gone.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. Yeah. And, and don’t think for a moment that we don’t realize that, that that’s a really privileged position to be in, to say you need to do X, Y, and Z and do let us know how it goes. And, off we go in most cases. but I think, you know, 24 years in different presidencies, that’s a hell of a hitch. And, to look at a track record of accomplishment you know, really transformational leadership, certainly at Drexel, hopefully at Temple, because I’ve talked before about how important I think that institution is to the city of Philadelphia and that its mission is to the city. But if I could get him back for five minutes, the question I would ask him is, why take on another really big challenge? You did great. You could retire from Drexel and be really happy.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
He’s a consultant, that’s why. That’s why, it’s the consultant, it’s the dopamine hit that you and I get from solving problems, right?
Erin Hennessy
I guess so.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And he’s still in it.
Erin Hennessy
Those are big problems. I don’t want to solve those kind of problems.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Well, but we do. So here’s what I would say is that one of the things that I loved about what he talked about and it’s how we started this episode initially is that work-life balance is critically important. He hasn’t burned himself out in three tough presidencies over 24 years because he’s understood the balance that he needed in his own life. And I think that’s one of those things I would love to package for some of our other presidents that this, he literally is approaching this as a marathon. He is approaching this as how he knows he can be strongest in the role and give the best leadership approach to his institutions. And that I think was just phenomenal.
Erin Hennessy
Well, he’s approaching it as a job.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes!
Erin Hennessy
It isn’t like a calling, it isn’t his life. He’s got family and kids and grandkids and squash games. I think so many of our, it was really interesting to hear him talk about his sort of entrance into higher education. And so many of our presidents go, well, I felt called to the work and eh eh, it’s a job. It is a J-O-B. And it’s a hard one and a big one and people give a lot of themselves to it. But I love that he says, I try not to take work home with me. Amazing. Amazing. Sorry, I jumped in on something you were saying.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
No, I agree with you. I think that kind of perspective, he’s not approaching it as if it’s not an important job and that’s a critical differentiator, but he is saying this isn’t the totality of who I am. And I think for a lot of our presidents that would be a fantastic reflection.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, I think for a lot of us presidents and others, yeah.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
A lot of us, yeah, that’s why we need years of woo, Erin. But this is what I would also say. This is my advice to all teams, find out what makes your president light up. If you all get to watch the video part of this, when I asked him about squash, he went from a very serious person talking about his job to lighting up in a way that we hadn’t seen him do throughout the rest of that interview. And what I would encourage our MarComm colleagues to do is find those topics and then figure out how to position questions and the president’s bio and the ways in which you talk about him and he talks about himself so that he lights up in a similar way. Because the last question, the non-verbals and the verbals just showed us, one, he does truly have that work-life balance. He has interests outside of his job. But two, how can we harness that kind of joy in all of the ways in which we help our presidents approach their jobs?
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, yep, important lesson for all of us.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
For all of us. And with that, Erin.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. With that, I think we should tell the people though to prepare themselves, gird their loins.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Gird your loins! Yes.
Erin Hennessy
If you will, that in a couple of weeks, we’re going to record our last episode of the season.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, academic years,
Erin Hennessy
Which, yeah, baby. Which I’m excited about. We’ll do some looking back. I think we should do as we have the last couple, some book recommendations.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, yes, yes.
Erin Hennessy
For summer reading and a big sappy thank you to all the folks that make this happen, like DJ and Maryna behind the scenes and all the people who are listening, but we’ll get to that.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes. And most importantly, Erin, namaste.
Erin Hennessy
Thank you, Teresa.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you, Erin. Bye.
Erin Hennessy
Bye.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Bye.
Erin Hennessy
Thank you for joining us for this episode. You can find links in the show notes to the topics and articles referenced, as well as a copy of the show’s transcript on the Volt website, voltedu.com. Remember that you can always contact us with feedback, questions, or guest suggestions at trustedvoices@tvpcommunications.com. Follow Trusted Voices wherever you get your podcasts and be sure to check out the Higher Voltage and Campus Docket podcasts also on the Volt network. Until next time, thanks to Teresa Valerio Parrot, DJ Hauschild, and the Volt team, including Aaron and Maryna, for a great episode. And thank you for listening.
