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Erin Hennessy
Hello and welcome to the Trusted Voices Podcast. I’m Erin Hennessy alongside Teresa Valerio Parrot, and in each episode, we discuss the latest news and biggest issues facing higher ed. leaders through a communications lens. For these conversations, we’ll be joined by a guest who will share their own experiences and perspectives.
Erin Hennessy
Hello
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Oh, hi.
Erin Hennessy
I’m grateful that people can’t see the video of our opening routine.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I think it’s fantastic, and they should. So, hi, I’m back.
Erin Hennessy
Uh. Hi.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m back from AMA, where I caught pneumonia.
Erin Hennessy
That’s so great. I’m back from Toronto, where I caught Taylor Swift and some kind of cold. But this is also, and I’ll let you rave on and on about AMA. But I also just want to note, this is the first time we have recorded since Election Day.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
Erin Hennessy
And so that is sort of out there in the ether as well.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
Erin Hennessy
But you want to talk about AMA.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I do want to talk about AMA,
Erin Hennessy
Well go ahead and do it.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
It was fantastic. It was the largest AMA symposium. And not just was it the largest ama symposium, it was the largest AMA event ever.
Erin Hennessy
Wow, congratulations!
Teresa Valerio Parrot
We hit 1,800 people. Thank you.
Erin Hennessy
That is a lot of people. Entirely too many people, if you ask me but…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, I peopled and I peopled and this introvert then had to come home and vert
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. Hardcore
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yeah. But it was so fantastic to see so many people, and it was great to be around a community that I love, and I’m just so appreciative of everybody who used their professional development dollars to spend time with a number of people that I adore.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, that’s so great. I’m glad that you went to Vegas. And what happened in Vegas happened, to a great extent, on LinkedIn.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Happened on LinkedIn. But here’s what I wanted to have as my second item I wanted to talk about, I feel like it’s continuing on Bluesky. So once upon a time, you and I used to love to be on Twitter, and then I didn’t love to be on Twitter, and about a year and a half ago, I left Twitter. And now I feel like very recently, the community has reformed on Bluesky. So in the show notes, you are going to see some links to the community from LinkedIn, where I was celebrating AMA, but you’re also going to see my handle for Bluesky, because I feel like the community that used to be on Twitter is now reforming on Bluesky. And we’ll have some starter packs there for some Marcomm people who are on Bluesky. You’re on Bluesky, I’m on Bluesky. People should come and join us there. I feel like there’s that conversation again. So if anybody wants to join us, please come join us. You get to see all of the goofiness that we have here, there. And people can see what we’re talking about. They can see links to this podcast, what we’re reading, and just life in general. So please come join us.
Erin Hennessy
I will say I have an account on Bluesky. I don’t know that I’ve ever posted.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
You’ve ever skeeted…
Erin Hennessy
Is that what it’s called?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yeah! It’s skeeting.
Erin Hennessy
Coincidentally enough, last night with my Georgetown students, we talked about social media and ethics. Insert joke about how it was a short conversation here. But we were talking about skeeting, and what was it on Mastodon? It was something stupid. Snurffling or…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Something…I was there for fully five minutes.
Erin Hennessy
I have been on Threads. It’s fine.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I can’t get engagement. Nobody, nobody likes each other.
Erin Hennessy
Crazily enough, I have, I hate to say gone viral, but I have had a couple of posts take off.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Same.
Erin Hennessy
This weekend, I posted and asked people what their favorite sad Christmas song was. I have gotten over 800 replies. Don’t ask me why I didn’t put a hashtag in there. I don’t understand how that thing works, but I’ve got a lot of people recommending that Christmas Shoes song, which…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I don’t even know that song.
Erin Hennessy
Oh, it’s bad. I’ll find a link for you
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I have a couple of posts that have done really, really well on Threads. Like, really well. But other than that, like, I’ve had like, maybe five that Kylie on our team, who will be like, “you’ve done so well!” There’s no rhyme or reason to it, but I feel like I’m having conversations over on Bluesky. Like I used to have on Twitter, where people are like, are engaging, that’s what I want. Come join me!
Erin Hennessy
Maybe. I don’t know.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Let’s skeet! I don’t like the phrase or the phrase skeet, but I like to skeet.
Erin Hennessy
I haven’t used Twitter in a long time, but I finally just closed the account out in the last couple of weeks, and I’m really okay. I’m really okay.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I just, you know, I just went cold turkey a year and a half ago, and now I can’t even if I wanted to close it. I can’t, because you need two factor authentication. But I left before I set that up, so I can’t even go in and close it. And I think that’s okay. I think it’s okay that I’m I accidentally shut myself out.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, it’s um, I’ve liked having the space back in my life since I left Twitter, however long ago it was. Year, year and a half. You know, we can talk about the election. I’ve sort of, I’ve heard from a lot of people, and I’ve done the same thing. I’ve sort of put news over there, and I haven’t listened to a podcast in two weeks, which as a podcast host I probably shouldn’t be saying publicly, but I’m, I’ve got a lot more time for reading, and I’m re watching How I Met Your Mother from the beginning, and I think I’m just okay not having a new social media platform in my life right now. We’ll see if that changes.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m back to having conversations again, like the old Twitter, and I missed that kind of banter with people, especially with those that back in the old Twitter days, like all my academic policy friends, right back to that space. How fun is that?
Erin Hennessy
That’s great for you.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yeah, I’m loving it. I’m loving it.
Erin Hennessy
Okay. Nip that in the bud. There were two articles that I just wanted to call to people’s attention this week. Obviously, we’re thinking a lot about the outcome of the election, and we’ll talk with Dr Belle Wheelan of SACS in a little bit about some of this, the outcome of the election, and really what that’s going to mean for higher ed. And I know the trades have covered it a bunch, but there was a really good piece that ran in the Boston Globe today that focuses on, really what higher ed under a Trump administration with Trump values might look like, and it is a pretty sobering read. It touches on a lot of things like accreditation and financial aid and what curricula can include. And I wouldn’t say it’s uplifting, but it’s definitely, I think, an important read. The one thing, the story that I’m sort of looking to read, you know, the two of us sort of come up with the ideal story that that we need is with new immigration policy, which is, you know, sort of a euphemism for this alleged mass deportation event that’s going to happen. What are our institutions doing and thinking about and talking about in terms of their undocumented students and making sure that they are prepared to protect them should this deportation thing actually happen? My guess is that it’s going to be tied up in courts forever and ever and ever, but I I’m hopeful the fact that we haven’t heard anything means that institutions are talking about it and playing it close to the vest, which seems like a very smart approach to me, but that’s sort of the big, nervous-making unanswered question that is on my mind this week post-election.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
To the second part of that, some of my colleagues did not make it to the AMA, so coming full circle, because some of their students are very concerned, and so they are working with their students because they’re worried themselves about being deported, and they wanted to make sure that they had the supports that they needed. And they were wrapping their arms around their own students to say, we hear you, we see you. And they chose not to go to Las Vegas and instead be there for members of their own community. And I told them, any way that I can bring content to you, let me know because that you’re choosing your community over your professional community. I see you. I get it, and I think this is going to be a reality for all of us over the next four years, that we’re going to be making choices for different types of community and doing so discreetly and making choices, because this is what our lives are going to be.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, grim as hell.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And also optimistic, right, that we have put in the listening tools and mechanisms and networks and ways of hearing each other, so that we can tell when people are hurting. And I think that’s key. I don’t know that we would have had that as acutely prior to the pandemic.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, well, you raise such a good point. It’s like you’re reading my mind. There’s no shortage of people to worry about over the next four years or more. As you say, pandemic. Immediately think about our student affairs, campus housing, residential life staff, who will once again be front line in what is a major upheaval for our industry, for our students, for their families, for their ability to pursue and complete their education, for their ability to feel safe in their communities. I’m just thinking about those folks and hoping that they have the resources and the networks they need to lean on while they are, once again, on the front lines for higher ed.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And I think we did this quite a bit last year, saying check in on your colleagues. And last year we were saying those who were frontline for financial aid. And the year before, we were saying those who are frontline in student affairs. And so we’re circling back and saying those who are frontline, dealing with students and working with students and hearing students. And so always check in on your colleagues.
Erin Hennessy
Yep.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So let’s do this, you know, let’s get to our guest. Because if we are known for talking about the issues that are out there, and we’re known for sass, let’s talk to someone who is known for the issues and for sass.
Erin Hennessy
And for SACS. Ohhh see what I did there?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Ha! There we go. And there we have a smile. I got a smile out of you.
Erin Hennessy
Alright.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Okay, here we go.
Erin Hennessy
Dr. Belle Wheelan currently serves as president of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, Commission on Colleges, and is the first African American and first woman to serve in this capacity. Her career spans more than 40 years and includes the roles of faculty member, chief student services Officer, campus provost, college president, and secretary of education. In several of those roles, she was the first African American and/or woman to serve in those capacities. She has received numerous awards and recognition, including six honorary degrees, and she holds and has held membership in numerous local, state, and national organizations. Dr. Wheelan attributes her success to hard work, endurance, tenacity, and being in the right place at the right time, and we’re absolutely thrilled that today, that right place of right time is here on Trusted Voices.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Dr Wheelan, thank you so much for joining us. Before we dig into our conversation, I think it would be tremendously helpful for our listeners to have a quick primer about the roles and responsibilities of accreditors. Briefly, what is SACSCOC responsibilities and how do these align and how do they hand off to the governance roles for campus leadership?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well thank you for the invitation to participate today, first of all, and it’s good to see you both again. Accreditors have been around since the late 1800s. We started as organizations formed by college presidents as a way to provide support for each other and to identify a set of standards that would differentiate them from K12 education. Now you have to think back to 1895 or 1865 or late 1800s when there weren’t as many colleges as there are today, and people were still trying to grasp the concept of going to school after K12 education. And so what we as accreditors do is ensure that institutions that join the accrediting organization live up to the standards that have been established by the members, and therefore can demonstrate to the general public that they are worth their dollars or their participation in attending. So that’s what we do. We help institutions continue to improve. If there’s some areas in which they are found not compliant, we help them with training programs and advice from some of their peers as to how they may improve, or if they are in serious trouble, then we have to say, well, you know, this may not be for you, and then drop them from membership.
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Teresa Valerio Parrot
So it’s interesting, because y’all have been in the news a little bit lately, right?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Yeah, we have, but that’s not new.
Erin Hennessy
I was gonna say, when isn’t SACS in the news?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well not just SACSCOC, but accreditation in general has been in the news. You know, there are changes that have occurred because of the election that we just had that will probably impact accreditation, though we don’t know how yet. You know when, every time a new administration comes in, there are things that they want to get done, and this administration coming in seems to think that they can get more of what they want done by impacting us. Not quite sure how that’s going to work. We haven’t seen a plan. We’ve heard, you know, a lot of conversation, but we haven’t seen a plan yet. And so I don’t know what our response will be, but we will continue to serve our members in that we are membership organizations. We are not governmental entities. So we’re hanging in there along with everybody else.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
But I think it’s important to say that this isn’t new, right?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
No.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Because each administration does come in. And as an example, we saw during the Obama administration, there was a lot of discussion about accreditors and gainful employment was one of those discussions that was really high profile. So why do you think that accreditors are where presidents choose to focus their energy and their attention.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, because we’re centralized, number one, when you’re talking about dealing with more than 4,000 institutions, it becomes a little difficult. But when you’re talking about seven entities, then it makes life a lot easier. 22 entities, it makes life a little bit easier for them. You know, we touch all of the institutions and because of the connection between accreditors and federal financial aid and the fact that we have to be recognized by the federal government in order for them to feel comfortable that our seal of approval puts an institution in the position to be eligible for federal financial aid. There is that perceived level of control over us.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And then money equals power.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Oh, so I’ve heard.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So can you talk to us a little bit procedurally about how exactly would you go about making changes, right? So we’ve heard, and I’m not going to have you talk about some of the really bold statements that we’ve heard about some of the changes that could happen. But if someone wanted to make really significant changes to the accreditation processes and the accreditation bodies, what would that process look like? Because I’ve seen some of what these changes are purported to be, and they’re pretty big. And so if somebody wanted to make bold changes, how would you even go about doing that? Because I would guess that’s a lot.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, historically, it has been done through negotiated rulemaking. I don’t know what it’s going to look like, because I don’t know the kinds of authorities or powers that this president is going to be able to put in place that other presidents have not had. That’s all part of the rhetoric. But if, if they follow the process, and they’re talking about dismantling the Department of Education, which is where we were. So…my crystal ball is very foggy. It’s raining here in Decatur, Georgia today. So I don’t know, but historically, it’s been done through negotiated rulemaking, and the department comes up with rules that they want to see implemented. They pull together the accrediting community and others who are impacted by it, so students are included, attorneys general are included in it. You know, people who are impacted by the rule to say, okay, on what can we agree? Can we come to consensus on these things? And if not, then the department gets to do what it wants to do anyway. So it just kind of depends. That’s how one of the last negotiated rulemakings during Mr. Trump’s first term had to do with opening up the borders or the boundaries for accreditation, because historically, since the late 1800s we all developed because of geographic boundaries. Presidents within a specific geography, you know, open this up, and now they’ve decided that those boundaries don’t need to be there anymore, since we all do the same things, even though we have different processes by which we do it, that institutions should be able to choose their accreditors. And so they did that through, you know, negotiated rulemaking. That was one of the rules that was put into place. So if true to form, either through negotiated rulemaking or through legislation. You know, that’s why there’s a house and senate education committees, because they put in bills to make that happen, or by reauthorizing the Higher Education Act, which was supposed to be reauthorized…
Erin Hennessy
Tell me about the Tooth Fairy when you’re done with the reauthorization of HEA.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
HEA was scheduled to have been reauthorized every five years. It has not been reauthorized since 2008, but they have made changes around the edges, again, through neg reg, or negotiated rulemaking, and, you know, legislation. So like I said, my crystal ball is not working. I don’t know how they’re gonna pull this off, but I know that they want to, so we’ll see what tools they use.
Erin Hennessy
Is this something that, I’m sorry, Teresa, is this something that you and other regional accreditors and CHEA are starting to sort of come together around and talk with the national associations that lobby on behalf of higher education to sort of come up with some strategies. And I apologize to our listeners, I’m going deep into my federal policy background, but is this something where you all are already starting to put together strategies on responses, you know, sort of where the bright lines are, where you might push back, and what you feel like you can live with.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
We have indeed begun having conversations. We started having these conversations during the campaign, when we started hearing things, and especially after Project 2025, came out, and it’s like, oh my God. But we’ve not come up with any specific strategies yet because we don’t know what the plan is. And so it’s tough to respond to something. You know, we’re doing things like trying to ensure that the value of accreditation period is well known to people, and this is certainly one step in that that we do help institutions improve students’ lives by helping them learn. And so getting them to identify what they expect students to learn is the first thing that we did, and then helping them to measure whether students have actually learned it or not. And then, you know, making changes within the institution based on that data. So being have making data-driven decisions is something you know, that we’ve done over the years. And so those are the kinds of things that we’re trying to shore up to make sure that, number one, we’re still doing them, but number two, that the general public knows that those are the kinds of things we’re doing. We’re looking at trying to identify ambassadors outside of higher ed.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
That’s smart.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
You know, what’s the business community think of what it is that our institutions do, and could they do it without us? Kind of thing? So, you know, there are things like that. We’ve not gotten to the proposal of what we’d like to see and versus what we don’t want to see, because we don’t know what they’re going to propose yet, but there will be fast coming once we hear in what direction they want to go.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m very curious about that, because I’ve been attending a number of different webinars and sessions and just a number of different conversations where we’re talking about things like negotiated rulemaking and collaboration, talking about how we’ve always done things in the word that keeps coming up is about trusted processes, and I don’t know that that’s how It’s going to work moving forward, and I am nervous that in some of the ways that we’ve always had gentlepeople agreements, that’s not necessarily the processes that we will be using moving forward. And so…
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Your nervousness and anxiety is shared by us, yes.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Right. Because if it…trust has to go both ways. And I’m not sure that the processes, when I’m hearing on these conversations, “we are trusting moving forward that…” I keep thinking to myself, that has to be a two way street. And I’m not sure that that is how this is going to work. Okay, so when I’m on these calls, and they’re saying, right, that this is how we’re going to proceed as we’ve proceeded before. My question is, and so then, what is your backup plan? Yeah,
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Okay.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So when I’m on these calls, and they’re saying, right, that this is how we’re going to proceed as we’ve proceeded before. My question is, and so then what is your backup plan? Are we thinking about those backup plans?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Yeah, and that’s where we are. We’re trying to develop that backup plan. I mean, you know the election results just happened two weeks ago. So it’s not like we’ve been able to jump out and say, Okay, here’s our Project 2025 response, you know. It hasn’t happened that way, but we’re working on it. We had a call the other day with a group of accreditors, not just the formerly known as regionals, but the formerly known as nationals as well, to kind of get this conversation going. And the first thing is to identify the potential changes that could occur. If you listen to the campaign comments that were made, there’s concern about LGBTQ community and the restrictions that may be put on that, the conversations around academic freedom and the freedom of speech and assembly, and all of those kinds of things. There are some states that are stepping out and talking about the passing laws rather that impact academic freedom and tenure, for example, which are all of those kinds of things that we’ve always understood to be a part of higher education that may now come into question. I mean, DEI was obviously the first drum that was beat out there and has been beat to death, and there are at least 14 states, 11 of them are mine, that have come up with anti-DEI legislation. So it’s, there are a lot of moving pieces at this particular point, our focus is still to continue to help educational institutions improve. That’s what we’ve done since the early days, that’s what we continue to do, is a continuous improvement process for these institutions to ensure that students get what they pay for, and that they’re prepared to go out and take the jobs that are out there. As the topic du jour has changed, so have we. You know, we just put in at all of us are looking at three year degrees, for example. You know, there’s been a push to get folks into the world of work sooner. And so how can you do that? Well, one way you could do that is perceived to cut back on the requirements for a bachelor’s degree. Then you have questions like, is that still a bachelor’s degree, or is that some other degree? Is that a less than bachelor’s degree? And, you know, so micro-credentials have popped up all over the place to give people some kind of credential to at least get into the workforce, even if they have to come back for additional credentials that can stack on top of each other to go out and get better jobs. So, you know, as those kinds of topics have come about, then our institutions have stepped up to the plate to try to be responsive, and our role as accreditors is to ensure that they’re not just throwing something together, that there’s some quality to what it is that they’re doing.
Erin Hennessy
I definitely want to dig into that three year bachelor’s degree or whatever it’s going to end up being called. But before we get there, we’ve talked a lot about, I think, politely putting it, skepticism from federal policy makers and elected officials about the quality and the rigor and the focus of higher education. And I think we see a lot of that same skepticism and scrutiny from the general public, either from students, parents or just people who are observing our industry, and I wonder how you address questions around whether or not, to Teresa’s point, this very genteel, gentleperson’s agreement on how we’re going to review institutions that encourage them to continually improve. Does the accreditation process and this self-study and self-review process, have enough teeth to be able to push back on some of this public skepticism of what it is we do and the rigor and the relevance of it.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, I think you can ask the institutions that get put on sanction whether they’re enough teeth in them or not. The general public generally is not as involved in the specifics of accreditation. They just want to know that you are accredited, that you’ve met those external standards, that you have some level of quality, and I’m willing to go there. I think the skepticism that’s out there is more toward a pricey bachelor’s degree, and all institutions are getting included in that conversation. If you look at the statistics that are out there, folks are saying that, given the way our system of higher education is designed, you don’t have a choice but to go to college after high school if you want to get a job somewhere. Does that mean you need a bachelor’s degree? Not necessarily, auto technicians, dental hygienists, respiratory therapist. You know, all of them can get a good paying job with an associate’s degree. Some of them can get one, even without that. Remember, at one institution at which I worked that we had a culinary arts program, and the graduation rate was very low because everybody went got a job before they graduated. You know, does that say that that’s a quality program, I would say so. But you know, federal government says it would zap that institution because their graduation rates are low. You can’t talk out of both sides of your mouth. Okay, so let’s, let’s figure out what we’re talking about. If we’re talking about student success, then we have to be able to define it differently, and that’s not always a bachelor’s degree. And I think that’s where the concern from the general public is that the cost of it is atrocious. Part of that is because states, for a long time, stopped supporting state institutions at the same level they had, and they had to pass on the cost to families, and families can’t afford it. You know, if it’s a chicken and the egg, if I have to go to college to get a good job, then how do I pay for education? Because I have to pay for the education before I can get the college education before I can get a job, and so it’s a round robin kind of thing. So I think that one of the things that speaks volumes to higher education’s effectiveness is that they are resilient and are putting in options to that traditional four year degree so that they can meet the educational needs of the citizenry. And so to say that you know higher education is that…it’s the price of it that people are questioning for what it is that they can get. I mean, a lot of people with bachelor’s degrees are not making the kind of money that they think they get. Of course, that’s always the college’s fault, as opposed to the industry that’s paying that’s paying them. But nonetheless, you’ve got a place the blame, somewhere. So I think there are too many variables in there to make that blanket statement, but I think institutions are being responsive and trying to help the general public understand that, number one, that when you look at a tuition sticker, that’s not always what people pay, and they don’t understand that because there’s tuition discounting their you know, their loans and grants, you know that are available. And so generally, people don’t end up paying the price tag, but the price tag they see is generally on the more expensive private Ivy League schools, and everybody’s lumped into that category.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Okay so if we’re talking about critiques, though, Dr. Wheelan, within the industry, there are also vocal critics who don’t believe accreditors have taken an active enough role in holding presidents and boards’ feet to the fire when finances are drastic enough that they need to make significant changes or make the tough decision to close.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
And yet, when we do take drastic steps, then we’re the big bad wolf for closing down an institution. There is no winner!
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Okay so Big Bad Wolf, how do you view SACSCOC’s role? Because there are these points that somebody needs to come in. So who needs to come in?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
First of all, our accrediting body probably has dropped more institutions for membership, for finances than any of the other accrediting bodies. We have some of the most stringent fiscal requirements of our institutions. I just got off of another call with a group of graduate students, and was explaining to them that we don’t just drop an institution after one year of non-compliance, we give them up to four years to get their house in order. We provide workshops…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Is four years too long?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, some people say it is, but unless you’re the students enroll there, who come in as freshmen and want you to be open four years later, and we need you to be making progress during that time. But there’s so many things that are involved in it. We had a lot of schools that were fiscally fragile right before the pandemic, and had the federal government not come in and provided additional funding, they probably would have been closed before the pandemic. Well, now you’ve got five years later, and you’ve got five graduating classes that were able to finish and people were able to get into the world of work because those institutions didn’t close. So no, I’m not going to apologize for not closing an institution right away. I want to give that institution, it’s a continuous improvement process. I want to give the boards and I want to give the administrations time to regroup and to go back and make some necessary cuts, to go back and look at the programs they offer and see if it’s the right mix, or if they need to get rid of the athletic program. I know that’s heretic in the south, especially, but you know, there’s, I mean, you can’t be everything to everybody, and so part of our job is to help institutions do some reality therapy. And when you aren’t listening to what we have to say, then it’s like, oh, well, then you don’t want to play by our rules. You need to go find another game. So yes…
Erin Hennessy
I think you just coined my new favorite term, reality therapy, which is a big chunk of what we do. And we certainly aren’t advocates for shutting the place down the minute the balance sheet goes slightly pear-shaped. But I do think we’ve seen the flip side of the institutions and other accreditors, because I know you all, you all are sort of the gold standard of really holding firm to what those standards are around finances. But we’ve seen some institutions really push to a point where they are hamstringing students on the other side and staff and faculty where the writing’s on the wall and hope is not a strategy, and we’ve got students who end up sort of feeling abandoned mid-semester.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
And I don’t disagree with that.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And the graceful close is not allowed, and instead, people become trapped.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
One of the things that we are starting to do as accreditors is to help institutions see the writing on the wall before it gets written in permanent ink.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And I think that’s the key. That’s the key.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Yeah, don’t disagree at all. And we have tried to do that. We keep financial, track of the finances of an institution annually, and so we’ll step in. We even have a fifth-year report now that institutions must submit to say, Okay, this is where we’ve been for the last five years. Here’s where we think we’re going. They project enrollment, they look at maintenance effort of their physical plant, which is one of the things that’s created a lot of financial hardship for institutions, because many of our institutions are old, and like me, being old, my body’s falling apart. Those buildings are falling apart, and if the enrollment is not there, you know, it trying to make decisions on where do I put the money so that it will best serve the students? It’s a tough thing to do. It is tough for our small and private institutions, sometimes it’s tougher because they don’t have the full faith and credit of the state on which to fall back. Donations are not where they need to be, even if they have strong endowments, many times those endowments are full of restricted funds. That is, they can only be used for scholarship. You know, they can’t be used to shore up a building, and so you have to have presidents and other folks within the institution and board members who can go out and raise money. And you know, it’s that’s a tough thing to do, especially during the pandemic. It was tough with the economy being downturned. People aren’t giving as much money in many of those particular institutions. Alumni don’t understand that every $10 you give can help a student buy books, as opposed to every 100,000 that you give. You know, in more, better endowed institutions can pay for buildings. You know, sometimes if I can get some money for some of those kinds of things where I’d like to help students stay in school, or if you want to put your money on a room in the library to help buy the equipment for that room. Folks don’t understand that there are all kinds of giving opportunities. They think that I don’t have a lot of money, so I can’t give a lot of money. Yeah, you can, every little bit helps at some of those smaller institutions that are underfunded, and this is the time to do that, and sometimes they just wait too late.
Erin Hennessy
That’s, yeah, it’s it just feels heavy.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
It is very heavy. And it’s not easy as an accreditor to call in a college president and the CFO and the board chair and say, if you don’t get your act together in three years, you’re not going to be in existence. There’s a denial there that, oh no, it’s going to help enrollments going to turn around. That’s the first thing that they think. Or we’re going to put in an athletic team and that’s going to bring more students, or
Erin Hennessy
Or a graduate program.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
New programs, or whatever. And we’re seeing an increase in the number of programs in some of those institutions. Fortunately, they’re adding programs in areas where they already have programs, so they don’t have to spend a lot of extra money on new faculty or new equipment and stuff. They can just strengthen the programs that they already have. But yeah, there’s still a lot of oh my god, what are and the enrollment cliff is real. The number of 18-year-olds coming out of high school, we stopped having babies, and so therefore, for a while, we don’t have any 18-year-olds to pull and so your traditional liberal arts schools that have not historically catered to adult students are now having to recruit adults. They’re wanting to recruit international students. And yet, you’ve got a national immigration system that is not always amenable to that. Is that politically correct?
Erin Hennessy
It is, it is.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
So what would you want us to see? What would you want us to see from those institutions that are leading with strength? What are some of the hallmarks that you’re seeing from those institutions? Because we’ve been talking about some of the areas that are weaknesses, partnerships. What are you seeing?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Partnerships is a good one. Articulation agreements that are coming in so that students can transfer specifically from community colleges to baccalaureate degree granting institutions, so that they don’t have to repeat courses. Transfer of credit is still the biggest stumbling block for students who want to continue their education. A lot of colleges and universities have plenty of empty seats in their junior and senior classes because their own students either don’t come back, or they flunk out, or for whatever reason, don’t show up for those junior and senior years. And they have a lot of space that they could take transfer students if they didn’t make transfer so difficult for them. And so that’s one thing. You’re seeing a lot more articulation agreements between senior institutions and community colleges, so that students who earn an associate’s degree can come in as a junior and all their lower division requirements are have been met. That’s a big one, right there. Okay? During COVID, you saw a lot of partnerships with distance learning, because there were institutions who were not prepared to offer their entire curriculum, you know, online. And so you saw a partnership agreements with other institutions where students could enroll in another institution’s course and get it counted as their own by taking it via distance. So you’re seeing a lot more of that kind of cooperative arrangement among institutions than ever before from those stronger, larger, better funded institutions. Unfortunately, you’re also seeing a lot of closures and a lot of mergers. The mergers are really good because that institution doesn’t go away and it’s still in that community and can provide instruction. But sometimes the identity of that institution is lost, which makes it difficult for students who have an allegiance to that institution to want to transfer when the name of the institution as they know it is no longer there. So there’s just, there’s a lot of movement that’s going on, but I think institutions are doing what they can to ensure that they stay open.
Erin Hennessy
When you talk about institutions being more creative and more innovative, and you mentioned earlier this three-year bachelor’s degree, not an accelerated program, but rather a shorter program, fewer credits to I don’t know what we’re going to call it, bachelor’s, light bachelor’s … who knows
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Expedited bachelor’s.
Erin Hennessy
This is why I’m not in marketing, because I would do something…
Dr. Belle Wheelan
You and me both.
Erin Hennessy
…just as clunky as any of those things we’ve just thrown out. This is pretty innovative for higher ed, and it’s really a step in a different direction for a lot of our more traditional institutions. And as we watch institutions roll this out and figure out how to price it and figure out how to make it work. How are you thinking about these kinds of innovations? How are you advising your colleagues at other accreditors to think about innovation? And is there a role for accreditors to say you all should be thinking about things like this and driving these kinds of innovations from the accrediting agency to the institution.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
It’s interesting that you asked the question the way you did, because since our boundaries are now open, we are competitors, so we don’t talk about how to do things anymore, because we don’t want to get in trouble with the antitrust laws, but each of the accreditors recognizes that three year baccalaureates, or less than 120 hour baccalaureate programs, are desirable because we’ve had institutions make that inquiry, or we’ve seen articles in The Chronicle. And so each of us is looking at a process that we could implement, where historically, we might have compared notes to see, you know, what are you doing at yours? What are you doing in ours? Like when distance learning was innovative, back in the Dark Ages, the regional accreditors actually came up with a set of guidelines to which we all agreed we would follow when going in to evaluate the quality of distance learning programs. Had we not been disband – my word, not anybody else’s – then we would have done the same thing with three year baccalaureates. But we can’t now do that. So we’ve each come up with our own processes and our own guidelines. We have a statement that’s going to our board for their consideration next month, as a matter of fact, that provides guidelines to our institutions on things to consider when you are putting in a baccalaureate program, less than 120 hour Baccalaureate program. We’ve only had one institution that’s requested it, and it was denied it because had not put out guidelines yet, and the things that concerned our board were now addressed in the guidelines. So hopefully we’ll be able to get one that’s approved. But bottom line is, it’s still got to be the same quality that you know you did before. Same thing with micro-credentials. We’ve put out a statement the same way. If you’re going to do micro-credentials and you’re going to accept credit from non-credit side of the house or from entities outside of higher ed, these are still the things that we’re expecting, that you’re going to guarantee when you’re now putting it in on your credit side of the house. So we’ve got guidelines that are going out to institutions to one, help them in thinking about how to develop this, but also to let them know what we will expect when a peer review team goes in to evaluate whether they’ve done a good job or not.
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Erin Hennessy
Do you think this is going to be sort of, I’m old enough to have lived through MOOC-a-palooza In the early 2000s and everyone thought that was going to be the thing that changed the entire face of higher education, and it ended up being just a couple freckles. Do you think this three year, less than 120 credit program is going to be something that really becomes widespread, or is it going to be kind of niche for particular academic programs or particular fields of study? I
Dr. Belle Wheelan
I think it’s going to get some traction, if for no other reason than the business community would love to see people get out into the workforce sooner, whether it will be adopted as broadly as the Baccalaureate degree as we know it is. I have no way of knowing. I told you earlier, my crystal ball is foggy here in Decatur today, because it’s raining.
Erin Hennessy
We need to get that checked.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
I know, it’s okay. I’m retiring in July, so it’s really okay. But the same thing with community colleges offering bachelor’s degrees, that is something that has taken them on, but it’s not so widespread that the identity of community colleges as associate degree granting institutions is lost. So I, you know, I can’t tell you what percentage of institutions will adopt it. I think they will adopt it as an option, as opposed to the only bachelor’s degree they offered, so that it’ll be, you know, an availability for those students who might want to do it. You called it a bachelor’s lite. When we put the committee together to talk about, you know, the kinds of things that we wanted to make sure were included, that was one of the names that they gave it. was bachelor’s lite.
Erin Hennessy
I hope they spelled it L-I-T-E.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
They did, they did.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I like expedited better than lite, because I think it still has the heft, right?
Erin Hennessy
How about diet bachelors?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
No no.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
I like you am not into marketing, so I don’t know what they’re gonna call it, but right now, we’re calling it the less than 120 hour bachelor’s degree, which is a mouthful.
Erin Hennessy
Excellent. Trips off the tongue.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I’m gonna go back to something that you said, because in the south, I think this is real. I’m gonna go back to athletics. How can we not talk about athletics with so many changes happening in with the NCAA in an overall intercollegiate athletics environment? How should accreditors presidents, boards and the overall athletics organizations partner together in this new athletics reality?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
You know, I spent 28 of my 51 years in higher education, in community colleges where athletics was not the major focus. So it was, it’s been very eye opening to me in this particular position, with the prevalence of athletic programs at…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Welcome. Welcome, Dr. Wheelan
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Oh no, I’ve been an athletic supporter. I was even a cheerleader many years and many pounds ago. But it was not at the, you know, it was not the same level of concern that I’ve had since I’ve been in this particular position. Because some of the issues with which we’ve dealt are, one of our requirements is that it is the President who picks the football coach. In the south, that is that’s questionable because, you know, board members and other people do that, and so we’ve had to work with institutions to help them understand that while this big name donor or this board member wants this person chosen, it is the president who actually has to make that offer. And has control over…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And for all of the different conferences, it is the president that is accountable. Yes.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
That’s right, that’s right. And so it is. It has been a challenge with some of our institutions, but they understand, and they’ve fallen in line and our members have never asked to change that standard, you know? So it is still a standard out there that and it a requirement.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And so much is different now. It is in the last couple of years, so much has changed.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
We have not directly dealt with the NCAA only because they deal with the institutions. We have the same members, and so we depend upon our members to come forth and say, here are the kinds of changes that we think we might need to make in order to stay in tune with the NCAA. Probably the newest piece was the athletics imaging, you know, and whether they could be paid or not. That is not something over which we control, because we don’t make that policy. That’s an NCAA policy. But we have a standard that says that the president’s got to ensure that those standards are upheld, and that’s where that governance falls. So that’s the way we have dealt with it. We’ve not intruded upon them to tell them what they should be doing, nor do I think we would allow them to intrude upon us to tell us what we should be doing, other than through our members. And we have mutual members.
Erin Hennessy
One last question. You mentioned that you’re retiring in just a few months, what’s the plan?
Dr. Belle Wheelan
I have none.
Erin Hennessy
That’s excellent. That’s the best answer.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
I have been planning for 51 years, and so I’m looking forward to a little while of planning nothing.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I can’t imagine. Dr. Belle Wheelan with no plan.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, I know, and it is, it is strange to me. And I still have eight months in this job, and I am committed to continuing to serve this job to my fullest for those eight months, I’ve not even thought about, you know what I’ll do next. I have not planned my career. However, there were many times that I ended up in jobs that I didn’t go seeking, and so I’m prayerful the good Lord put me in the right path then, and he’s going to direct me to where I need to go after I retire. But right now, I’m just, I’m looking forward to some me time. There are still four states in this nation I’ve not visited. There’s still some foreign countries I’d like to see. So initially, I think I’ll do a little traveling. Never seen Niagara falls for example, and I’d like to do that. So, you know, there’s some, some of those personal kinds of things that I’d like to do, but I otherwise, I really don’t yet have a plan. Check back with me in May, and I probably will, because, like you, Teresa, I cannot see me without a plan.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes.
Erin Hennessy
Well we are so glad that your plan for today brought you to us for an hour. It has been such a privilege and a delight to talk with you and to hear about things from your perspective and to see a little bit of what’s outlined in that fuzzy crystal ball.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
Well, I appreciate the invitation, and I hope that you will continue to spread the story of the good things that higher education is doing, as well as the challenges they will have to face.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you. Thank you so much for your time and for your energy.
Dr. Belle Wheelan
My pleasure.
Erin Hennessy
Thanks, Dr Wheelan.
Musical Interlude
Erin Hennessy
I feel like we end a lot of these conversations feeling so much better than we did when we started.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And I have to say, when we first were talking about guests, I was like, ah, can we have Belle Wheelan? Because she’s amazing, and she was amazing.
Erin Hennessy
Of course. I have written down here on my notepad, the Lord takes care of fools and babies, I’m my momma’s baby and a whole lot of people’s fool.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Right? She is fantastic. She told us that as soon as we stopped recording, I wrote it down too. I’m gonna get that on a t shirt.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Maybe we get matching tattoos. What do you think?
Erin Hennessy
No.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Okay, maybe I get it on a t shirt.
Erin Hennessy
You can get your own tattoo. I just, I have grown up, you know, since I joined ACE in 2007 hearing about Belle Wheelan. And hearing about Belle Wheelan like she was a rock star. Not that I doubted it, but you sort of have to be in her presence to understand what a smart, no nonsense, strategic person she is. That was everything I hope that conversation would be, and then some.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Well, and I knew when we went into this conversation that she was gonna go there, and she did. And just being honest with us right, here’s what is going on. Here are the conversations that are being held, and also, here’s the landscape, and it’s going to be okay in all of these ways.
Erin Hennessy
Yes, and she did not like your question about holding, holding the feet of institutions to the fire. And I love that. It’s also, and this is not a knock, it’s also quite clear that she has never listened to this podcast, because we go on and on about how accreditors haven’t held feet to the fire, as in the ways that we think they should. And it’s really refreshing to talk with somebody in higher ed and hear pushback on that, and to hear that perspective.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Well, why? Why they don’t, right?
Erin Hennessy
Yeah. you know, I think a lot of people, and sometimes you and I included, assume it’s because it’s this sort of quote, unquote, “old boys club,” and to hear that it really is focused on student success. And, you know, she was right at the end of the pandemic, five more classes got out of some of these institutions with degrees.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I mean, but also I think some of them should have closed, but…
Erin Hennessy
That was, we ran so long, but that was my follow up question on that one was, is there a world in which you think that Cares Act money, I don’t want to say a bad idea, but some of these institutions that were all ready to use their phrase, financially fragile should have been allowed. We should have let go of some of them.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I think that we will just agree to disagree, right? Yes, and I can see her point. I absolutely can, and I agree to disagree.
Erin Hennessy
I mean, it’s case by case, right? Yeah, and she’s absolutely right. SACS is much more aggressive than a lot of other accreditors are in terms of saying, you will meet this standard, or there will be consequences, as opposed to, you will meet the standard, or, you know, right?
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Or we’ll carry you to the next stage of you will meet the standard or, and then we’ll carry you to the next stage.
Erin Hennessy
But, man, she’s a rockstar.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And that’s part of why I just respect her so significantly, because she is so clear with the institutions within SACSCOC, these are the expectations, period.
Erin Hennessy
Yep.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Amen. And I also appreciate we did not give her softball questions.
Erin Hennessy
No.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
And she answered them. And we also said, are you okay with these questions? And she said, Yes, ask them.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, I mean, with the career that Belle Wheelan has had, there was nothing we were going to toss at her that she was not going to be able to handle.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Oh, 100% yes.
Erin Hennessy
And the fact that she made time to speak with you and me is just…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
She’s a class act.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, yeah, buddy.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
I just, I have so much respect for her, and I’m sad that she’s going to retire. She has more than earned her retirement.
Erin Hennessy
A couple times over, yeah.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
But I’m have just so respected hearing her voice over my career, and knowing that SACS has been in such good hands, and that she doesn’t suffer fools, right? And she loves higher education for the same reasons that we do. She loves the outcomes, and she loves what higher education represents. And I’m just so honored that she was on our podcast.
Erin Hennessy
And there’s some part of me that hopes that once she is retired, she will be even more unfettered in terms of sharing what she thinks, because I bet there is some gems in there that she’s like, Oh, hold on.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Do you think?
Erin Hennessy
The other part of me hopes she just goes to an island somewhere and never thinks about higher education and never picks up The Chron or Inside Higher Ed ever, ever again, because she’s earned it.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Agreed she’s 100% earned. May that happen July 1?
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, yes. Well, there it is. Our holiday gift to our listeners, Belle Wheelan.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, we are thankful for all of you. We have one more episode before the end of this calendar year.
Erin Hennessy
I know I feel like we should do something, not like carol singing, but I feel like we should…
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yeah, nobody needs me to sing, nobody wants me to sing.
Erin Hennessy
Correct, yet that didn’t stop you earlier in this episode.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Did I sing?
Erin Hennessy
Oh, Teresa. You’re adorable.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
My memory is so short.
Erin Hennessy
Yeah, yeah. Okay,
Teresa Valerio Parrot
There we go, yeah. Like we should have mimosas. Is that what you’re saying we should do for the last episode.
Erin Hennessy
We could do that. I was thinking more like book recommendations, non-work-related book recommendations for over break.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Oh. We could do that. I can bring like my favorite Hallmark movie recommendations.
Erin Hennessy
Sure, yeah. I don’t know. We’ll think about it.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Okay.
Erin Hennessy
We’ll think about it. But in the meantime, Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Yes, yes.
Erin Hennessy
And thanks for listening to yet another episode of Trusted Voices.
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you, everybody. We’re thankful for you.
Erin Hennessy
Bye!
Teresa Valerio Parrot
Thank you for joining us for this episode. You can find links in the show notes to the topics and articles referenced, as well as a copy of the show’s transcript on the Volt website, voltedu.com. Remember that you can always contact us with feedback questions or guest suggestions at trustedvoices@tvpcommunications.com. Be sure to follow Trusted Voices wherever you get your podcasts, and we invite you to check out Higher Voltage, another podcast on the Volt network that is hosted by our great friend Kevin Tyler. Kevin explores the evolution of higher education that is happening right before our very eyes. Until next time. Thanks to Erin Hennessy, DJ Hauschild, Aaron Stern, Nicole Reed and the Volt team for a great episode, and thank you for listening.
