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Erin Hennessy:
Hello and welcome to the Trusted Voices Podcast. I’m Erin Hennessy, alongside Teresa Valerio Parrot, and in each episode, we discuss the latest news and biggest issues facing higher ed leaders through a communications lens. For these conversations, we’ll be joined by a guest who will share their own experiences and perspectives.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It is so nice to see your face again, Erin.
Erin Hennessy:
Oh, thanks. It’s the only one I’ve got, so…
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
We are really excited for our guest today, and we are excited to dive into the FAFSA fiasco. But before we do that, we always like to talk a little bit about what we are seeing and reading. And I would love to kick us off.
Erin Hennessy:
Well, why don’t you?
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yes, I am going to start with a piece that I saw in The Chronicle of Higher Education. This was from Nell Gluckman, and the header was “In One of Higher Ed’s Hottest Fights These Documents Have Become Exhibit A.” And what they’re talking about are the student-athlete code of conduct documents that many campuses have and how those documents are being used by the National Labor Relations Board as evidence that student-athletes should be classified as employees.
So I thought it was a very interesting read for us to be thinking about that general higher education landscape. I know we have a number of institutions that are thinking through, whether it’s unionization of student-athletes or unionization of other groups on campus. And I thought this was a really interesting read for something that we’ve always just assumed is, as some say, guidelines that also tie to scholarships and how we should be thinking about those today.
And I loved this. This is the lead to the piece. “If you were on the University of Colorado at Boulder men’s golf team last year, you were told ‘you must do something nice for everyone every day’.” I love that. Sounds perfect for my alma mater. And everybody, that’s where I was raised on a campus.
Erin Hennessy:
And the second sentence is, “If you played baseball for the University of Texas at Austin in 2022, you could only wear one chain during practice or games.” It is fascinating the level of detail that is in here and will be really interesting to see how that level of detail either hinders or helps the efforts that some of our student-athletes are undertaking as they think about unionization and other activities on their campus.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yeah, it’s a nice reminder of the changing environment because I’ve worked on a number of these, and I’ve also worked on issues associated with a number of these. And we used to say, you are an ambassador for your institution as a student-athlete. And therefore, the associated expectations of being an ambassador include, and that was your guide. So it is a different day in a different way that we’re describing how intercollegiate athletics works on a campus. So that was a kind of fun piece.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, there’s one that I haven’t shared with you, but I will send you the link when we are done here that ran in Harvard Business Review, this month, last month, at a point in time. And it is focused on research around student-athletes and how brands are deciding which student-athletes they want to work with and want essentially to be ambassadors for their companies, their organizations.
And it is interestingly less about the size of the social media platform that these student-athletes have, and it is much more about how they represent the mission and values of the institution that they play for and study at, which I thought was a really interesting… I don’t know if I’d call it a twist, but it definitely wasn’t the outcome I was expecting.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
I can see it. Yeah.
Erin Hennessy:
I was expecting platform to play more of a role. But yeah, these brands are absolutely looking for that sort of ambassador kind of behavior from our students. So there could be an intersection of interests there between sponsors — NIL employers, if you will — and the institution to sort of shape expectations in student-athlete behavior.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Well, and to that point, the reason I can see that being a thing is that there’s a real reason why these came about, right? There’s a real reason why these, for some of them, have become very lengthy, and you can tell have been added to based on what may have transpired on the campus, right? But I think that it’s a very interesting document, perhaps, for our colleagues to take a peek at if you are outside of athletics. And if you’re inside of athletics, I know that you know it backwards and forwards. And you might want to think about it with the National Labor Relations Board consideration in mind.
So I’m going to move on to another clip that is sort of related. So I’m going to bridge here. And that is Inside Higher Ed had a piece about “Lawsuits Will Happen: How New Laws and Regulations Are Shaping Higher Education.” And they shared, it was a Q&A piece. They shared a new book that just came out that’s called “All the Campus Lawyers, Litigation, Regulation, and the New Era of Higher Education.” I’d encourage you all to take a look at that. I am going to order the book because I appreciated in the piece how the authors and lawyers were talking about being realistic and also keeping up with where we are today.
I liked the practicality with which they were describing their advice. And I think there is something here for all of us to learn from because this is an ever-changing world. I would love to see how they’re talking about what those regulations and potential lawsuits are and, also, get the insights of how they are advising presidents so that we can make sure that we are advising presidents as well or better.
Erin Hennessy:
Not that it’s about competition, but I agree. And I think as we are, and this is going to segue beautifully, as we are watching presidents testify before Congress, and we are seeing more and more protests on campus right now around Israel and Gaza, but certainly this reactivation of protest is, I think, going to carry over to other issues as well thinking about how our institutions are approaching, managing those kinds of events on campus, both from a student development perspective but also, let’s be frank, for many of them from a legal perspective. I think this is a really interesting book, and I would like to borrow your copy when you are done.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Absolutely.
Erin Hennessy:
Thank you.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
What’s on your mind, Erin? And then I have one thing I’m gonna circle back to at the end.
Erin Hennessy:
Okay, beautiful segue, as I mentioned. Inside Higher Ed also had a piece this week focused on how institutions are disciplining students around student protests. And it was particularly interesting to me because we are in one of the most event-heavy periods of the academic year for our institutions where we have student open houses, where we have commencements coming up, where we have reunions coming up, all kinds of events that present really fertile grounds for protest and disruption. We have seen students occupying president’s offices, which we have not seen in a couple of years, certainly since before the pandemic. Probably is not something that we probably have at the top of our list of this is something we’re prepared as an institution to know how to deal with. And we’ve seen some presidents make some unpopular choices. We’ve seen presidents make choices that we certainly wouldn’t have advised them to make as they figure out how to navigate these protest issues.
Just before we started today, I watched a little bit of the House Education and Workforce hearing and the very first question that the chair of the committee raised with the president of Columbia was focused on discipline and how discipline for students participating in unsanctioned events is handled. So just something to keep at the back of your mind should your campus experience a protest, what your disciplinary policies say and how they are lived and whether there’s any daylight between the two is going to be a really important issue that I would encourage folks to keep top of mind.
There are some good links and resources out there. We’ll include them in the show notes. There is an entire section on the Penn America website focused on protests on campus, and they also link to a number of resources. And United Educators also has a section of their website on addressing demonstrations on campus. That one is more from an insurance perspective, not surprisingly, less from a student development perspective, but still I think, worth taking a quick run through and seeing what’s there.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Oh, I want to add to this because what you just described is what I have been spending this week talking about, and that is where might students protest as we near the close of the semester? So I’ve been talking to campus leaders about exactly that and thinking through for some of them, how do we allow these protests and for others, how do we mitigate these protests or how do we work on them in a way that for all of the institutions, they’re trying to figure out what feels genuine to who they are and how they normally operate, right, if you will. But I think this is one of the twists this year, and this is why I wanted to stop and mention it here. The twist this year is that it’s not just students protesting on campus. We are seeing staff, we are seeing administrators, and we are especially seeing faculty join in the protests.
So as you’re thinking about those policies, as you’re thinking about what you do, including discipline, brush up on your faculty handbook, brush up on your employee handbook, and make sure that you understand the history and also the environment where you are, so that you have a better sense of what this could be. Because for a number of campuses, I still hear student protests, and I’m having them shift to campus protests, and also consider what happens if people outside of the campus come onto the campus to join as well?
Erin Hennessy:
Yes, and I think that question of external parties either supporting or spurring or leading campus protest is a really important one. It’s one that I’m not sure most institutions really have a good grasp on how to navigate and manage that, and you’re absolutely right. Faculty and staff are engaging right now more than I think we have seen probably since George Floyd was killed. And so it does present a couple of different layers, and I appreciate you pointing that distinction out.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
One more, and I only say this because I’m watching the news, look also at what your policies are for allowing reporters on campus, and make sure that you’re communicating that in advance to reporters, especially those that you have relationships with. Don’t make this be a shift in your relationship when they come on campus when you don’t want them there, but you normally welcome them when you do want them there.
And, think about, and this is for public institutions and private institutions. Just think about how you are engaging with your community as well, because there are also some communities that are starting to have some town-gown relationships strained based on protests that are happening on their campuses too.
Erin Hennessy:
Yes, absolutely.
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Erin Hennessy:
The last piece that I wanted to share is one from the Chronicle of Higher Education. It was written by Lisa Jasinski, who was previously in the president’s office at University of Texas at San Antonio. But next month, she will start work as the president of the Associated Colleges of the Midwest. So congratulations to her.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yes, congratulations.
Erin Hennessy:
She, yeah, she wrote a fantastic piece in the Chronicle, called “How to Choreograph a Leadership Transition” and makes the point, one that you and I have made any number of times both to each other and to this wider audience about the importance of having that transition plan and not just conducting a search, getting to the end of it, and then saying, oh my gosh, what next?
And so thinking about where we are again in the calendar, we have seen a couple of retirement announcements in the last week. We have seen a couple of exceptional appointments in the last week and we’re just sort of heading into that time where folks are making a decision about whether or not they’re going to step out of a leadership role and starting searches on our campuses. Thinking about the search is super important. Thinking beyond the search is just as important if not more so.
You, in this day and age, are gonna have a new leader step into a campus culture and a campus climate about which they may not know anything. And it’s incredibly important that we think about how to thoughtfully bring folks up to speed as they join our communities and step into leadership roles. So thinking about what the challenges are, thinking about the strengths, the opportunities, and really who gets involved in crafting a transition plan. It’s, I think, often assigned to one person and that person gets really tuckered out really fast.
So, I highly recommend this piece if you are even thinking that your leader might be thinking about thinking about stepping down because this kind of intentional work really sets them up for success and really sets the institution up for success as well.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
I would say, I don’t care if you’re if anybody’s thinking about it, you’re thinking about any, I don’t care. Just put a plan in place. Because one of the things that is so critically important is where the board does or doesn’t participate in this process. And that predates somebody making a decision.
That is how the last person is allowed to depart or how they are instructed to do so. That is the language that is used. That is the search process that the board ultimately has control over. That is the naming of the person. That is the process that the board sets into motion. It’s the transparency or not of this process.
So I am such a, as you know, a governance nerd and always think about what is that application for a board. And I can’t think of a more important piece for boards to be considering right now, because how they operate and how they think about these really do set that president up either for success or for an uphill battle that will always have a process or a misstep or an irregularity brought to that leader’s attention, even if it wasn’t theirs. So anybody, everybody read this piece and think about how to have grace as we go through these processes, how to treat each other with respect, and how to set leaders up for success.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, and one of the really interesting points, and I think you’re absolutely right, and then I think I would layer on top of that, one of the really interesting points that Lisa makes is that so often we think about having a transition plan for bringing someone into our community, onto our campuses, having that put in place and we’re just going to walk you through it and tell you how this is going to go, et cetera, et cetera.
And she makes a really compelling case for having a lot of the framework in place, but also making sure there is space for that new leader to say, here are my priorities, here’s how I prefer to digest information, here’s where I wanna spend the first couple of days. So really crafting portions of this with the incoming leader so that it is most helpful for them in the spaces and places and ways that they are thinking about their leadership and thinking about engaging with this new community.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
If someone would like an insightful president talking about this, we’ll add to the show notes the Trusted Voices episode that we had with Vince Rougeau, who talked about exactly that, how did he approach it? Both his departure from the institution where he was and his start somewhere else. He did a great job of making sure that he fulfilled his obligations to both, and his thoughtfulness in that process was really impressive.
Erin Hennessy:
Yep, absolutely.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Okay, can I transition us to our guest this episode?
Erin Hennessy:
If you must, you don’t want to just continue to talk.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Well, it’s still part of the talk, so we can, we can dissect it. And that is I shared one data source in the show notes, and that is some Pew research. And it is the “Changing Partisan Coalitions in a Politically Divided Nation, Party Identification Among Registered Voters.” And this is a report that has data through 2023 but actually goes back a couple of decades.
And I’m mentioning this because we are in such a politically turbulent time and I know that there are other people out there who love data and love dissecting it, and I think that there is some really interesting data that Pew has put forward that talks about not just partisanship but also how it intersects and influences a number of our institutions. And when I say institutions, I’m not just talking about colleges and universities, I’m talking about those big foundational parts of our country and also colleges and universities.
So this is a great data source that I will have in the show notes because I have also been pulling some data from this to share with different presidents and with different administrators. It just came out, but I’m already pulling from it because for some situations, people are saying data is showing that. Go back and check that that’s what the data is showing, right?
Republicans think this. Democrats think this. Democrats have always been here. Republicans have always been there. Go back and look at the data, and they slice and dice it and run some cross tabs that are pretty interesting to either confirm what we’re hearing or also to push back on that and then to give some additional nuance about why it isn’t that way, but we might perceive it that way. So just a set of data points because there are very few things that we’re agreeing on these days, but there also are some things that we have commonality across the political spectrum.
Erin Hennessy:
An important point to remember and in line with your personal brand of optimism even in the most challenging of times.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Even and especially in the most challenging of times, like what we’re seeing in admissions.
Erin Hennessy:
Absolutely. So let’s go ahead and jump right into our conversation with our guest. And we’re excited to welcome to the show — to the podcast, Angel B. Pérez, CEO of the National Association of College Admission Counselors.
Music break
Erin Hennessy:
Dr. Angel B. Pérez is CEO of the National Association for College Admission Counseling, lovingly known as NACAC. In this role, he represents more than 27,000 admission and counseling professionals worldwide, committed to post-secondary access and success. Prior to joining NACAC in 2020, Dr. Pérez served in higher education leadership positions most recently as vice president for enrollment and student success at Trinity College in Connecticut.
And throughout his career, he’s worked to realize his belief that diversity and academic excellence are not mutually exclusive, and that every student who aspires to higher education should be afforded the opportunity. His work echoes his own story. Growing up poor in Puerto Rico in the South Bronx, he was the first in his family to graduate from college and went on to become a leader in higher education. Dr. Pérez, Angel, we are so excited to have you with us today. Thanks for making time.
Angel B. Pérez:
Thanks for having me.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It’s so great to see you again. The last time I saw you, we were on a webinar for CASE and it was maybe within a day or two after, or maybe it was before the Supreme Court ruling on affirmative action. And we were talking to a wide variety of audiences about how should you be thinking about this and how should you be communicating. It feels like a lifetime ago. I don’t know about you.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, we’ve had a few other issues in American higher education since then. That seems like five years ago to me.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yes, agreed. But, but I think there’s something interesting that’s happened since then. And we’re seeing that poll after poll tells us that Americans agree on almost nothing because we live in a politically polarized world. But interestingly this year, there seems to be one topic that’s bringing together Republicans, Democrats, higher ed leaders, campus communities, and the general public. And that’s the flawed rollout of the new FAFSA by the Department of Education.
Angel B. Pérez:
I was wondering how long it would take for you to bring up that thought.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
We were just gonna go ahead and talk pleasantries and here we go. So the recent congressional hearings on the new FAFSA described the effort as a failure. That’s not my word, that’s what it was described as. Can you give us some background on how we got to this point and how you are encouraging higher education leaders to proceed with their important recruitment and enrollment work?
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, I would agree with the description as “failure.” I’ve also even used the word debacle. It is highly disappointing. I have a lot of empathy for Department of Ed colleagues who I meet with on a weekly basis. I know that this was certainly not their intention. Actually, the intention was that the process was going to be simplified. And for all intents and purposes, the form is simpler. There are a lot fewer questions for students to actually answer.
But unfortunately, there have been a lot of technical glitches along the way, and the department also felt strongly that they should change the formula this year as well. And that, in essence, is good for students overall because more students would potentially qualify for more financial aid but doing all of these things at the same time the department was not technologically ready to take on a behemoth like this and so unfortunately it’s our students who have suffered.
And you know, Teresa, I don’t know if you want to go there, but I’m happy to talk about how I also believe institutions are going to suffer tremendously, especially those that are already on the brink financially. I’ve heard from presidents who have said this could potentially put me out of business. And so it’s really, it’s why I use the word debacle because it is really a huge crisis. And the last thing I’ll say about it is, as you know very well, we’ve already lost over a million students during COVID in the pipeline to higher education. Right now the prediction is we could lose up to 700,000 more as a result of FAFSA. So, this is really a crisis beyond higher education, we’re talking about the future pipeline into the American workforce.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yeah, I think that’s fascinating. And where you just were talking is where I wanted to go next. So that’s the perfect segue, talking about that 25% to 30% fewer FAFSA applications and what this year could mean. So, I’d love for you to apply your expertise and your crystal ball to say where you think higher education will be on census date this fall and how campuses can boost their current deposits, how they should be thinking about this, especially because so many of them are rightfully panicked.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, I think it’s complicated, as you know, and everyone’s doing the best they can. I’ll start with high school counselors because I have spent a lot of time I was actually in Kansas City last week with counselors from Oklahoma and Kansas and Missouri that part of the country who basically said their biggest concern right now is keeping students in the system. Most of the students and families are extremely frustrated, and so they have said to their counselors, “We’re gonna do this next year.”
However, we all know that the minute students leave high school if they don’t have post-secondary plans, they’re probably not going to come back. And all the data shows that. And so, a big part of what we’re trying to do as the National Association is create movements around the country, local communities, to try to get more students to complete the FAFSA. We’re also working with colleges and universities. We actually started a campaign the minute the FAFSA rollout went south to get institutions to delay their deadlines. At many institutions, hundreds of them, you can find that list on our website. They have delayed the deadlines. Some colleges and universities, and I’ve heard directly from them, they’ve created their own financial aid forms because they don’t want to have students wait. Unfortunately, what that means is more work for students, more work for counselors. And so it’s been a lot of this has fallen on the shoulders of counselors.
But you know, I don’t have a crystal ball. And I, you know me well, I’m not a doom and gloom person in general. But sadly, I don’t have a ton of hope here. Like I do predict that we will probably see fewer students when census date comes around on campus. You know we’re still about 28 to 30 percent behind on FAFSA filings as of today. If we don’t close that gap immediately we are going to see a tremendous drop.
And you know if you layer on top of this the fact that this is the first year that most colleges and universities are admitting students without ability to see race, my biggest fear is that the students that we are going to lose are the lowest income, most marginalized, and students of color in this country. That has tremendous implications, not just for this entering class, but really for generations ahead of us.
Erin Hennessy:
Can I ask one quick follow-up? Just in listening to another podcast yesterday that shall not be named, I heard for the first time somebody raised the question of a federal remedy for institutions because this is going to have such a large potential impact on their balance sheets. What are you hearing about that? It sort of reminds me of the CARES Act funds that sort of helped institutions get buoyed through COVID and really sort of pushed off a mass extinction event, if you will, for institutions on the financial brink. Are you hearing about a federal remedy and what are you hearing about the shape of that potential remedy?
Angel B. Pérez:
Yes, we are actually advocating, we as in NACAC, my organization is actually advocating for federal funds to be used to help support institutions. I mean I still get chills when I think about it. I spoke at an event for college presidents, which shall also not be named. I don’t want to identify it. But I spoke at an event recently just for college presidents, and several of them pulled me over. They were presidents of small rural colleges. Some of them religiously affiliated and said, Angel, this is what will put me out of business. Because if I don’t make my enrollment, I don’t make payroll. And if I miss one check from the federal government that represents financial aid, that could be devastating for my budget.
And so we are advocating that there are federal dollars, just like in COVID, right? I actually wrote an article in Hechinger a couple of weeks ago, where I raised this flag, that I said the difference between COVID and this crisis is that colleges were flooded with funding. We are not hearing anything yet about funding. And so I hope that as a result of the hearing that took place last week, that hopefully this rings alarm bells for Congress and that legislators will actually engage in trying to get institutions funding. They are going to need it.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
So I’m gonna go back to where you were talking about where we worry we’re going to lose students. And I continue to read and hear, and I started with talking about current deposits, but I also think it’s important for us to talk about retention. Because those who I think are most likely to shake out are my family, my background, my people, if you will. And I really worry that it’s those who are already in college who will not continue because they need and have had FAFSA dollars, as well as those who will be new students. How are you also thinking about that retention portion of it as well? And how do we expand the conversation to reflect current students, as well as those who are going to be starting this fall?
Angel B. Pérez:
I’m so glad you brought that up because I do think it’s an area that a lot of institutions are not paying attention to. There’s so much conversation happening about incoming students, rightfully so. But the reality of the matter is, are we checking in on our current students, enrolled students, to make sure that they have filled out the FAFSA for next year? I’m also hearing from some of our higher education colleagues that their own students are saying, you know, I’m just going to skip next year. I will ride this one out. Maybe, I’ll come back a year from now. We know that the probability of them coming back is pretty low.
And so one of the things I’m encouraging institutions to do is have campaigns on campus, have workshops, have people physically on the ground, just like we’re doing in places like New York City. I’m so proud. There’s a woman, Kristen Harris, one of our members and one of our leaders here at NACAC. She runs post-secondary success for all of the high schools in New York City. She has partnered with the public library system. She has partnered even with like local bodegas and communities to try to get workshops on the ground to help students figure this out. And so we need that version on college campuses as well.
And by the way, while you’re at it, if you’re hosting workshops for your own students, invite local high school students, you know, do a FAFSA action night and partner with local high schools to do it. And so what we’re trying to do is really create movements on the ground locally.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Excellent. As we’re thinking about this, I think that I would love if you could give, you said you’re a positive person, a little bit of inspiration here. And this is how I’m thinking about this. The NACAC Guide to Ethical Practice in College Admission stresses collegiality and professionalism as core attendance of the profession to ensure honesty, integrity, transparency, equity, and respect for students and fellow professionals.
With the current state of the FAFSA data transfer and the data integrity, because there have been issues on both, many of our admissions colleagues that we’re hearing from are facing tremendous pressure from their presidents, from their boards, from their communities to bring their class in no matter what. So how would you advise them to think about and integrate these ethical practices, even as they worry about their careers and potentially their institution’s financial stability?
Angel B. Pérez:
I love this question so much because I have been thinking about this. I’ve written about it. I actually wrote a letter to the membership exactly about this. And one of the things that I have called for is grace. We need to show each other grace. I think one of the things that has really worried me about our profession is that everyone is so stressed out that the finger-pointing and blaming immediately comes out, right? High school counselors are saying it’s the admission dean’s fault. Then admission deans are saying, well, it’s the high school counselor’s fault or, well, look, none of us created this scenario, but here we are and we need to deal with it.
What I will say is the admissions community, it’s one of the reasons I’ve loved this community, been in it for over 25 years and again, I’ve been on the ground. I’m actually headed to Ohio this weekend to meet with more members. The reality is, while people are stressed and certainly feeling a little burned out, they are like so into fighting this fight and making sure that they are in it for the students.
I think, you know, our membership has turned around in trying to show each other grace and to be kind to one another. I think where we need to do a little bit more work and where I try to use my voice is with presidents and boards reminding people that admission officers are not magicians and that admission officers have to deal realistically with the headwinds that come their way.
And so I would hope that presidents and boards are also showing grace, that presidents and boards are supporting their admission teams who have already, before FAFSA, we were already dealing with major crises of enrollment issues. It’s almost like we don’t even talk about a demographic cliff anymore because we’ve had so many other issues to talk about. But we need presidents and boards and community members and faculty members to come together as a team to deal with this crisis together and not just to finger-point and say to the admissions office, just bring us more students. That’s not the reality we are currently living in.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, it’s hard to create them out of whole cloth and get them to enroll in college when they simply aren’t there. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned sort of in passing, Angel, and this must be such a fascinating time between COVID and SFFA vs. Harvard and now FAFSA to sit in your seat. I’m guessing that because of the sort of layer of complication that FAFSA and that potential precipitous drop in applications and enrollments presents, it’s hard to suss out maybe what the impact of the Supreme Court case has been already on the admissions process. But are you hearing anything that can give us sort of an early look at what this impact has been of removing the ability for some institutions to look at race in the admissions process?
Angel B. Pérez :
I mean, here’s an area where I do see a little bit of hope. I mean, I always look at for what is the opportunity in the crisis. And I think so many institutions took the opportunity to rethink their recruitment process because the reality is that is where they feel they have control, right? You can really try to put a lot of energy and resources towards building your application pipeline. It’s very difficult to recruit a diverse class if they’re not in your pool. And so, you know, lots of creative recruitment, lots more community engagement across the country. There’s, for example, colleges and universities that are now collaborating with the Black church and working with Latinx community centers, and just things that perhaps institutions weren’t doing before. I’m hearing a lot more about direct partnerships with community-based organizations, so creating pipeline programs a little bit earlier and an awareness of higher education with community-based organizations all over the United States.
And so, I think what’s changed is a little bit of the recruitment tactic. Unfortunately, I think really until census date, we’re not going to get a true sense of what the impact has been. I still do predict we’ll probably see fewer students of color this year. But you know, what’s interesting, I was thinking about this last night, that we’re not really going to be able to equate it necessarily to the Supreme Court case. Right? It’s going to be this perfect storm of Supreme Court and FAFSA. And so the numbers, we will see what they are, but at least there’s a lot of creativity, and again, in the spirit of optimism and hope, so much passion in the college access community about making sure that despite all of these challenges that we’re still getting students into and through the pipeline.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It almost feels in some ways like a doubling down on intentionality and mission. So this had us refocus why we’re here and how we’re going about our work, which I guess is the silver lining.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, and you know one of the things I keep saying, this is the season four, we have 23 affiliates around the country and the world and so I try to get to some of their conferences, and I’ve been sharing a quote actually from the Secretary of Education Miguel Cardona who spoke at the NACAC conference last year. And it’s a quote that just resonates so deeply with me and he said that every generation is called upon to renew the promise of America and this is our challenge, right? Like this other generations had different challenges to deal with and this is the one. And so while it’s obviously an exhausting time to be in this work it’s also really inspiring that we get to wake up and do this work and fight the good fight.
Erin Hennessy:
That is such an optimistic take, and to your earlier point, again, it’s not a time when a lot of us are feeling optimistic about tackling the big challenges facing higher ed, so I’m excited that your members get to hear that kind of support from you.
Electric Kite ad read
Erin Hennessy:
One of the other questions that has sort of come out of the SCOTUS decision and has been sort of floating around in the ether for a bit is the consideration of legacy status in the college admissions process. We’ve seen some federal and state legislation. Nothing has really moved forward on those fronts, but just wondering what you’re hearing as you visit these affiliates around the world, what you’re hearing from your members about how they’re thinking about legacy status, and if you really feel like that is something that’s going to make a significant change in the makeup of incoming classes.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, it probably won’t surprise you that our membership is divided about this issue, just like the American public is, just like higher education is. I will tell you, and this is, I want to preface this by saying this is Angel Pérez thought, not NACAC thought. But I, as I speak to reporters about this issue who always want to talk about legacy, really my take on this is … and I want to also preface this, that I am on the CASE board so I’m also someone who works with development professionals very closely.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Thank you for your service.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yes, yes, I love serving on the CASE board. It’s a great, great group. But the reality of the matter is that I think every institution should be thinking about their legacy policies, how they take that into consideration in admission, but I do believe in institutional autonomy. I am very concerned about government officials creeping into the day-to-day operations and decision-making of admission offices.
So from an overarching theme, I lean more towards institutional autonomy, but I do believe that institutions should look at their data and see, you know, how many legacy are, is this actually an issue on our campus? One of the things that I hear a lot from many of our members is, Angel, this isn’t an issue on our campus. It’s a tiny subset, or maybe my big public school, it’s not even a thing.
So one of the things I get concerned about when I hear that, you know, Congress wants to take this up or, you know, my former state of Connecticut is talking about it, is the amount of time, money, effort, political will, energy that will go into this for very small returns. And what I mean by that is that the institutions for whom this is really truly an issue serve a tiny, tiny subset of students. This is not going to move the needle on equity and access. We’re not going to all of a sudden flood the gates of institutions with, you know, marginalized students because we get rid of legacy.
Erin Hennessy:
Right. Right. Yeah, it seems to take up an outsized amount of real estate for people when you look at what the potential impact is. But again, I think there’s a lot here about control and a lot here about making small steps. But I share your concern about having these processes legislated on any level.
Angel B. Pérez:
Exactly. It’s a slippery slope.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, it’s nervous-making, to be sure.
I also just wanted to ask as we chatted before we started recording, I started my career in admissions. It was great work. It was hard work. It was not particularly lucrative work, in the mid-90s when I was a road warrior out on Long Island. I know that as we’ve come out of COVID, there’s been a lot of conversation about workforce needs and higher education, particularly in the areas of our campuses where we’re seeing a lot of young staff come in and do a lot of work, a lot of hours for not often a great deal of pay. And I know that CUPA-HR released a study in 2023 that really offered some interesting insights and some recommendations on how to start rethinking those entry-level positions in admissions and enrollment management so that institutions have a better chance of recruiting and retaining really high-quality staff.
How are you all at NACAC and how are you as someone who’s sort of been in these trenches thinking about engaging members around this challenge and thinking about how you can get institutional members to really take this seriously and make sustainable change?
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, we should do a whole podcast about that because I have lots of feelings about it. But actually, it’s one of the areas that we are focusing on here. Last year, we started a program here called Next Gen where we do college fairs all over the United States, and many of those college fairs, I don’t know, Erin, maybe you did those when you were a young person out in Long Island.
Erin Hennessy:
Oh, I have stories. I have stories.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yes, yes, but many of those fairs are actually staffed by young admission counselors. So, we are trying to actually host events to inspire the next generation of people to do this work and to actually help them see what a career trajectory could look like for them. But the other thing we’re advocating for, and I love the CUPA-HR data because it’s equipped us with great information that we can advocate with institutions for. And here’s something that I will say that’s a little controversial, but I’m gonna say it anyway…
Erin Hennessy:
Oh, we love that. Go ahead.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yes, please say it a little bit more loudly.
Angel B. Pérez:
And I will say this wearing my CASE board member hat and my NACAC CEO hat. I am in awe of the fact that entry-level development officers make so much more money than admission officers when the reality of the matter is for most highly tuition-driven institutions, which by the way, is 95 plus percent of institutions in the country, your revenue is dependent upon these young admission counselors who are traveling all over the country.
So there is a forthcoming op-ed in my head about this. I just haven’t had time. Thank you, FAFSA. So we can get it out there. But actually I’ve been talking to a few deans of admission who have asked if NACAC could help advocate for this. And a big part of the issue is that most institutions say, well, we look at our peer group. Well, someone has to go first, right? And so some institution has to say, our entry-level admission officers need to make more money because we are dependent on them to enroll students and bring in tuition revenue. So, I do think that there probably is a forthcoming movement on this front, and we’d love to be a part of it.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. Looking back now, seeing myself as a 21-year-old and realizing now what I didn’t realize then, which is exactly what you pointed out, so much of the revenue of the institution was dependent on 21-year-old me at that college fair on Long Island. And it’s, you know, on some level it’s scandalous that we are not compensating and developing and retaining these folks who are so vital to everything else we do on our campuses.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Yeah, and I wonder if, because I did a stint on the development side, so this is my director of donor relations question, I almost feel though in some ways that we think of admissions officers as those who will come in for a few years and then cycle to something else. And instead for development, it’s how do we keep them and grow them because they have these experiences and these relationships longer term. So part of that shift, I think, is thinking of admissions officers as, it’s a career path and these are people that we are growing and these are skills that we want to build and putting that same kind of investment into what they bring, like we see on the advancement side.
Angel B. Pérez:
Yeah, and that’s actually what we are hoping to do here. In fact, actually we are in the process of creating, thanks to a wonderful donation, the Center for Reimagining College Access. And one of the pillars of that center is actually going to focus on how do we recruit, retain, and cultivate the next generation of leaders in the field with an eye towards diversity, making sure that we diversify the profession.
But I’m deeply concerned about making sure we get good people who wanna do this work, but then most importantly also that they stay because the work is so critically important. But the three of us on this podcast know it has never been harder. And so we have to equip people with the tools to do the work and also show them a trajectory.
Erin Hennessy:
Yes, and step away from sort of a churn-and-burn approach. I mean, my appointment was for two years, and I didn’t last that long for a variety of reasons, but it’s absolutely vital for all of us and it enables all the rest of the work that we do. And so I’m excited to watch as you all start to navigate this issue and hopefully come up with some really good solutions for our institutions.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Well, I know that you have a packed calendar and I know that you are running to something next. I just wanted to thank you so much for your time and just, I feel like we covered so many topics, and we have so many more that we could talk about and I appreciate that you were willing to have a conversation with us.
Angel B. Pérez:
Thank you and thank you for hosting me, but also for putting this great thought leadership out there. I think it continues to remind people of the issues but also hopefully inspires our members and our colleagues to continue to do this good work.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Thank you.
Erin Hennessy:
Thanks so much, Angel.
Music break
Erin Hennessy:
That was a super fun conversation.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
That was, I feel like we covered so much ground, he mentioned that. But it was fascinating how much we were able to get in such a quick amount of time.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, it was a speed round in some ways, but a really in-depth speed round.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Which I loved, and a passionate speed round, which, yes.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah. Yep. And I think one of the things that, that conversation sort of, I hope pulls up for people is the fact that all of this is interconnected. There is no issue in higher ed that lives in a silo all by itself and has no impact anywhere else on the institution. That just doesn’t exist.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Well, especially because now we are such tuition-dependent institutions, we are such financial aid-dependent institutions, we are such donation-dependent institutions, all of this ties together with a bow. And I think that Angel was able to talk us through what that looks like and the pressures that all of those bring together and also as they exist independently. It was a great conversation.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, but talk about being a happy warrior. I mean, if I were in that slot, in that seat, I would have like four cigarettes going at once and a very large cocktail just out of view. I am amazed by the ways in which he just doesn’t seem daunted by all of these issues that are just coming at our industry and his profession one after the other.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
I think the way he was describing how he’s tackling his job reminds me of how I like to think that I approach mine, which is as a realistic optimist, right? And there were moments where he talked about getting the chills. And that’s such a Teresa phrase. And I truly wrote down on my piece of paper here, my notes, I just got the chills. And then he mentioned that he got the chills. And I’m like, well, damn it, I can’t say I got the chills on that same topic. And that was who’s going to sift out of this fall’s class.
And I think that there were real moments. And I think what he was describing, the reason that I had chills and I mentioned this, is because he was describing where I came from. He was describing my family. He was describing those that I know have started and haven’t finished or never started. And I think that why it’s so personal to me is because I know what that 1.7 million students, potentially, that he’s talking about, what might be their fate. And that gives me the chills.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah. And it’s, I keep coming back to, we’re making it harder and harder and harder to be a college student if you don’t come from a very particular set of circumstances, experiences, resources. We’re just making it impossible for those students.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It’s always been very hard, but I agree with you now it’s impossible.
Erin Hennessy:
It’s impossible, and then we turn around and wonder why we aren’t achieving our goals in terms of diversifying our student bodies or increasing attainment or all of these things. And they’re not all self-inflicted wounds. Some of them definitely are, but some of them are external factors also that are just complicating this and making it so hard for all of us. And that’s before we even get into, you know, some of our favorite topics like the value conversation and the lack of trust in higher education and all of these things that just, it’s just a really hard time to do any of this right now.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It is.
Erin Hennessy:
There goes my optimism right out the window.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
So, I’m going to come back to optimism because he was talking about the need to give each other grace. And that, as you know, has been what I have been pushing on a number of our different podcast episodes. So I, for myself, am declaring 2024 the year of grace because we are now in April and it is getting tougher as time goes by with so many different things going on across this country and on our campuses. And so my prediction for the coming months to close out 2024 is that grace is going to be what gets us through. So 2024, that’s my year of grace.
Erin Hennessy:
Yeah, not to sort of be the pessimist, although it’s sort of my role in this partnership. I think that’s a lovely notion, and I hope that it is taken to heart. I just think about the students and the institutions for whom there isn’t enough grace to change the story, whether it’s a student not being able to enroll or it’s an institution not being able to keep its doors open because of, again, probably some self-inflicted choices, but also this just overwhelming external environment that just makes it so tough.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
And I’m not minimizing that reality, but I also think behind that we have people. And what we often forget is that there are human beings that are associated with all of this, and campuses look for scapegoats for who is to blame. And I feel very strongly that there is an uptick among my colleagues who are in marketing and communications and enrollment management and admissions who are feeling that bullseye on them right now. And so the reason that I’m talking about that grace and the reason that I was so pleased that he mentioned it is because I want for us to be thinking about that grace as we’re looking at the macro, but especially as we’re talking about the individuals.
Erin Hennessy:
Yep. Well on that somewhat bittersweet note …
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It’s a positive. It’s a positive, grace is a positive.
Erin Hennessy:
Grace is a positive, I’m just unsurprisingly not all the way there with you. But there’s always time. And I know you’ll extend me grace as I am somewhat more pessimistic.
But this was another great conversation. It did go so fast, almost too quickly, and I wish we had more time with Angel, but he, as you note, he’s got a lot on his plate. So we appreciate him making the time. We appreciate all of our listeners making the time for us. And Teresa, it’s always nice to see your face.
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
It is always nice to see your face, and thank you for sharing chills with me.
Erin Hennessy:
Aww
Teresa Valerio Parrot:
Thank you for joining us for this episode. You can find links in the show notes to the topics and articles referenced as well as a copy of the show’s transcript on the Volt website, voltedu.com. Remember, that you can always contact us with feedback, questions or guest suggestions at trustedvoices@tvpcommunications.com.
Be sure to follow Trusted Voices wherever you get your podcasts, and we invite you to check out Higher Voltage, another podcast on the Volt network that is hosted by our great friend, Kevin Tyler. Kevin explores the evolution of higher education that is happening right before our very eyes.
Until next time, thanks to Erin Hennessy, DJ Hauschild, Aaron Stern, Nicole Reed and the Volt team for a great episode. And thank you for listening.
